Student fees and protests/riots

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:25 am

Paul McKeown wrote:It is my understanding that there will be a taper from £21,000 at 3p in the pound to £41,000 at which point the full 9p in the pound would apply.
That makes it look very much like a tax. At £21,000, a 23p rate of income tax and at £ 41,000, a 49p rate. The non-tax aspect is that it's capped both by amount ( the cumulative tax never exceeds the amount borrowed rolled up with interest) and by time ( thirty years was it?).

If you were intending a career as a chess professional, does loans for fees affect your decision whether to go to university?

Michele Clack
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Michele Clack » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:08 pm

The sheer scale of the potential debt is scary for a kid from an ordinary family. Besides the £9000 (possibly) a year fees they will have to fund their living expenses. £3000 p.a wouldn't cover a place in Halls of Residence. It might just cover a room in a shared house at a university in a cheaper part of the country. Don't forget they've got to eat, travel, buy books etc.etc. On the Manchester University website they recommend budgeting £7,700 p.a. For universities in London it is bound to be more. So that's a minimum debt of £50,000 for a 3 year course.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:22 pm

michele clack wrote:The sheer scale of the potential debt is scary for a kid from an ordinary family. Besides the £9000 (possibly) a year fees they will have to fund their living expenses. £3000 p.a wouldn't cover a place in Halls of Residence. It might just cover a room in a shared house at a university in a cheaper part of the country. Don't forget they've got to eat, travel, buy books etc.etc. On the Manchester University website they recommend budgeting £7,700 p.a. For universities in London it is bound to be more. So that's a minimum debt of £50,000 for a 3 year course.
I know someone from the Black Country who goes to UCL. He couldn't find cheap accommodation in London. Instead, he commutes daily from Sandwell & Dudley to London Euston. While it might take 1 hour 20 or so on the train, it's actually cheaper to do it that way!

Alan Walton
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:54 pm

Alex, did that person have any kind of social life :(
I found it difficult commuting the 15 miles from home to Manchester (which took me over a hour on the bus), always having problems when needing to use the library or go for drinks with friends and get the last bus home

I would have the following question to people: Would having debt of over £30k once finished, make you decide no to go to university?

I certainly would have thought twice about it, coming out with £8k was bad enough

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:03 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Alex, did that person have any kind of social life :(
Yes, definitely so. I think he managed to make other arrangements at weekends...
Alan Walton wrote:I found it difficult commuting the 15 miles from home to Manchester (which took me over a hour on the bus), always having problems when needing to use the library or go for drinks with friends and get the last bus home
My journey takes me about an hour, and I'm only 8 miles from University...

johnmcbride
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by johnmcbride » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:14 pm

Certainly for me, who started the course at 27 and finished at 30.

I graduated in 1997 with about 10,000 of debt and that took years to get rid of. Course fees plus living cost loans adding up to 50-60k (more for some courses) would have scared me out of it. I was entitled to a mature student grant, as well as loans and I still struggled. I also worked 20 hours a week for the first half of the course. The second half of the course ended up as all work and no play for me. My studies meant that I had no time for work. The reduction in income from taking a career break did not help and I had to miss out on many things.

Alan Walton
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:39 pm

John,

I studied when 18 for 2 years in 1994-1996, I did get my fees paid for and I also receive a means tested grant of about £2k in year one, which more or less disappeared in year two, though this only covered accom costs. Therefore I had to use my own savings and the student loans available of about £1,100 and £1,800. These were on the old scheme where you paid them back over 7 years

I went back again at 23 in 1998 for 2 years where I had to pay my own fees of £1000 per year, which came out of my student loan, fortunately I lived at home so I had no living expenses so I only came away with £8k of debt, but this has taken nearly 13 years to pay off

I think families are not just getting squeezed on this subject but on numerous things, so I can see alot of parents putting pressure on students to try a find work straight after leaving sixth form, but will there be jobs available?

I am not against students paying fees but there has to be a fair balance of government funding and student funding, but the current proposals are too weighted towards the students.

Also, there is also the problem of the writing off of the student loans after 30 years, it could end up costing more in the future with all this outstanding debt

johnmcbride
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by johnmcbride » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:16 pm

Like you, these living cost loans did not cover living costs and I had to take on other private debt to keep going.

The loans that I got were a much better deal. They only start to be repaid once you were earning 85% of the national average wage. They are then cancelled after 25 years, or when you hit 50. The interest rates are set by inflation and were more affordable than the loans that will be offered in 2012 onwards. Which will be inflation plus 3%, more than most mortgages.

I can see many of the new loans still outstanding when the 30 year time limit comes up. Unless the government accepts some responsibility to share the costs with students, there will be a funding crisis in the future. Non of this makes sense as the government is not likely to save much for many years to come. Having a well educated workforce must make more economic sense than trying to save relatively little.

I was happy to take on those loans, but would not have considered the new loans. As they will effectively become a lifetime burden. The problem is that a degree does not guarantee a
job nowadays. In Scotland for example, only 16% of newly qualified teachers have secured work as teachers. I would not say that teachers pay is anything other than ok when you compare it some other post graduate qualifies professions.

A lot of graduates do end up earning 20-25k, not a great income, but enough to have to start repaying the loans. It does not leave much room for buying a house, living and saving up for your children to go to uni. You will still be repaying your loans after your kids have left uni. Sounds like a plan to keep the working class, right through to the middle class down. Only those who have parents well off enough to pay the fees upfront will be happy with this system.

Scotland still provides free university education, but for how long?

Neill Cooper
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Neill Cooper » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:34 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:The best source for facts is the DTI website.
Actual it is now BIS: http://www.bis.gov.uk/

Their 'student finance' page http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/higher-e ... nt-finance states

"Graduates will not make a contribution towards tuition costs until they are earning at least £21,000, up from the current £15,000. The repayment will be 9% of income above £21,000, and all outstanding repayments will be written off after 30 years. This means all graduates will pay less per month than they do under the current system. The £21,000 earnings threshold wil also be uprated annually in line with earnings from April 2016 (when the majority of students who commence a three year degree course in September 2012 will become liable to repay."

Students going to university in 2011 will normally pay fees of £3290, but the typical cost of living of about £7,000 is also in their student loan. Hence on graduation they will owe about £31,000.

Students going to university in 2012 will normally pay fees of £6000 [that is what BIS says, 'some' courses will charge up to £9,000], but the typical cost of living of about £7,000 is also in their student loan. Hence on graduation they will owe about £39,000.

Mick Norris
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:41 pm

Alan Walton wrote:Alex, did that person have any kind of social life :(
I found it difficult commuting the 15 miles from home to Manchester (which took me over a hour on the bus), always having problems when needing to use the library or go for drinks with friends and get the last bus home

I would have the following question to people: Would having debt of over £30k once finished, make you decide no to go to university?

I certainly would have thought twice about it, coming out with £8k was bad enough
Yes, I would have still gone, (but that's easy for me to say as it was all paid for in 1982-85), as I would have been confident of earning enough after graduation to make it worthwhile (as indeed all maths graduates from the then second best ranked maths department in the world should do)

My time at Manchester University was brilliant (obviously, other universities are inferior), but the problem now is that even Bolton has a university, and too many students are going on to higher education for us tax payers to support
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:13 pm

BIS website wrote:This means all graduates will pay less per month than they do under the current system.
Isn't the point though that it will be paid for much longer? It's like those loans Carol Vorderman advertises, it's not cheaper if you have to pay for longer. That's why lenders, if not governments, have to quote the APR.

Paul Robson
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Paul Robson » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:40 pm

I am not a fan of Students living near Durham City I bump into them on a regular basis as I do my shopping. I do however have some sympathy with them and don’t think they should have to pay for their education. The taxes paid on the extra £100000 plus they are projected to earn over their lifetime will repay society in part via taxes, National Insurance contributions etc.

Those less well off will suffer and potentially will be stopped from attending college. The “we are all in this together“, doesn’t really wash. It is ok for those students with a well off Mammy and Daddy however some real talent could be lost.

Anyway watch who you vote for in future, would be my advice to that student on TV
waving the “I voted for Nick Clegg" Banner .

As a final point it has been shown throughout history that very few peaceful demonstrations achieve anything. I don’t condone violence and vandalism but it certainly gets the issues noticed !

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Gareth Harley-Yeo
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Gareth Harley-Yeo » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:11 pm

I went to University a decade ago when the fees were £1000 p/a and the accom was £1500 p/a. I wasn't eligible for any form of grant as my parents' income was too great. However they opted not to support me financially, which meant I saddled the debt myself. If I had to do the same thing in the current climate I'd forgo a degree altogether. My brother didn’t attend a University; in fact he was in the lowest set throughout school. He currently earns around £7,000-10,000 p/a more than I do. Unless you want to be a doctor/dentist/physicist or other such profession I don’t think a degree is worth the expense - especially when it comes to ‘the arts’.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Joey Stewart » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:11 pm

Well put! I do feel there there are far too many degrees which have no career path (or even transferrable skills) at the end of them and people do such things just for the sake of 'having a degree'. I would expect that we will see more of these lesser subjects weeded out in years to come and only the strong will survive - as it should be!
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Ian Kingston
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Re: Student fees and protests/riots

Post by Ian Kingston » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:06 pm

On tonight's edition of The Daily Show with Jon Stewart (which was Monday night's show in the USA) a special 'Hand-Crafted Charles & Camilla's Commute of Terror Commemorative Chess Set' was offered free with every purchase of equally commemorative Riot Plates. The show is available online at 4oD. (Satire, just in case you've never seen the show.)

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