World economy

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Christopher Kreuzer
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World economy

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:53 pm

The Greek economy is back in the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16987644

There was an interesting perspective here a few days ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16918000

'Europe is poor so should live within its means'

"European workers are overpaid and unproductive".

George Szaszvari
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Re: World economy

Post by George Szaszvari » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:03 am

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:The Greek economy is back in the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16987644

There was an interesting perspective here a few days ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16918000

'Europe is poor so should live within its means'

"European workers are overpaid and unproductive".
There are forces pulling and pushing hoping to gain advantage from the chaos in one way or another, but IMO Dr Mahathir's comments about denial, etc, hit the nail on the head. What do you, and others here, think?

John McKenna
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Re: World economy

Post by John McKenna » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:35 am

It's grand larceny - bad debts are being collected by international loan sharks who gambled and lost. They want their bad bets covered as much as possible by the numerous small taxpayers of the world.
Bankers get bonuses for failure and its the same thing - the markets failed in the US - as in 1929 - but this time Gordon Brown, of all people, led a Charge of the Light Brigade to bail them out (and try to bribe the UK electrorate to elect him) so Europe (including rich Germany) is paying the price - you could regard it as paying back the Marshall plan aid delivered by the US to Europe after WWII. (The UK is in between so some gain but many lose.)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John McKenna
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Re: World economy

Post by John McKenna » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:40 am

With specific reference to the two links - on the Greek crisis and Dr. Mahathir's comments - above.
Athens is burning due to the imposition of austerity cuts meanwhile our Chancellor George Osbourne has defended his government's austerity package after the warning by Moody's rating agency that it may cut the UK's credit rating due to lack of growth.
Where's the growth?
Well, it's in the US - yesterday Obama announced his budget. (It included the repeal of G.W. Bush's tax cuts for Americans earning more than $250,000.) And, a White House spokesman said, "I think there is pretty broad agreement (that means between Democrats & Republicans) that the time for austerity is not today... Right now we have a recovery... and if we (the US) were to put in austerity measures it would take the economy the wrong way."
So, Europe is to continue to take the bitter austerity medicine while the US, which has the 2nd biggest debt in the world (behind only Japan), can postpone it and take growth hormones instead. The thing is the US & Japan are too big to fail, while Europe is cracked enough to be split asunder if the markets don't get their debt euros and pounds of flesh.

As for Dr. Mahathir, he is another leader who, just like Obama, says one thing to the world then does the opposite at home. He is a longstanding leader of a country that suffered real and perceived injustices in its history so he has no love for the former European colonialists that carved up Asia. However, he is also the leader of a nationalist islamist party that has long followed dubious policies. One is based on the concept of the 'bumiputras' (sons of the soil) who are the native Malay population of his country. Due to the immigration of large numbers of Chinese and Indians to Malaya, under British rule, on independence Dr. M's party felt a strong need to redress the balance (a similar thing happened throughout the former British 'posessions' in Africa) and positive discrimination for Malays was introduced to the detriment of the other two large minorities.
His ruling party refused to accept any Vietnamese boat people as that would have further increased the number people of Chinese ethnicity in the country.
Another indicator of that uncompromising mentality can be seen in yesterday's Times on p.32 - a young Saudi journalist who fled his country has been deported from Malaysia despite fears he could be executed on his return. Contrast that with our tame treatment of dissidents who pose a greater threat.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

George Szaszvari
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Re: World economy

Post by George Szaszvari » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:28 pm

John McKenna wrote: [snip]...just like Obama, says one thing to the world then does the opposite at home.
Yep, and prezzie also says a lot of things to the electorate at home, doing something else entirely, while completely ignoring the Constitution.... it is utterly surreal how the mainstream media here just glosses over the tsunami of irregularities. Peter Sellers last film, "Being There", sums up much of this presidency rather poignantly.
John McKenna wrote: He is a longstanding leader of a country that suffered real and perceived injustices in its history so he has no love for the former European colonialists that carved up Asia. However, he is also the leader of a nationalist islamist party that has long followed dubious policies. One is based on the concept of the 'bumiputras' (sons of the soil) who are the native Malay population of his country. Due to the immigration of large numbers of Chinese and Indians to Malaya, under British rule, on independence Dr. M's party felt a strong need to redress the balance (a similar thing happened throughout the former British 'posessions' in Africa) and positive discrimination for Malays was introduced to the detriment of the other two large minorities.
His ruling party refused to accept any Vietnamese boat people as that would have further increased the number people of Chinese ethnicity in the country...[snip]
...and, fitting in with all this, the Dr is known for being steadfastly in the "Death to Israel" camp. The fact that he, like many others, is capable of making pointed observations about Western shortcomings, doesn't have anything to do with his own...
thank you for your input.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: World economy

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:14 pm

I wonder if football counts as a product on the world economic stage? If so, better not mention it to Scotland.

George Szaszvari
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Re: World economy

Post by George Szaszvari » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:51 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:I wonder if football counts as a product on the world economic stage? If so, better not mention it to Scotland.
You had to go and do it, (mention football) didn't you...

The game itself as a "product", hmm, maybe not, but as a big time earner, most definitely, including all the media and advertising, and then the people and products needed for the playing and support of the teams, playing fields, equipment, kits, etc. Biggest sport in the world = a huge money spinner. Umm, Scotland? Some kind of private joke? I recall Glasgow Celtic being the first British team to win the European Cup (beating Inter-Milan in 1967, the 2-1 scoreline belied Celtic's dominance) like it was yesterday, and the national team beating England 2-3 at Wembley in one of their annual meetings back in the 60s, when they had some rather special individualists and played it rough and tough. Their best was when Dalgliesh and Co crushed Holland in a World Cup game (1978 iirc) after they left themselves with too big a margin of goals to score to qualify, but they still won that game convincingly. I watched that game on TV in Belgium and the general consensus was Scotland seemed to give up chasing the impossible too soon, and they could have done it! Holland lost in the final to Argentina. Scotland can approach that kind of glory again with some decent management and trainers.

BTW best England player in the last thirty or so years? Gary Lineker at his peak was great, but I give it to Alan Shearer, one of the most underrated players of all time. A huge worker, great team player, rarely lost possession or wasted the ball (unlike Gazza) and deadly in front of goal. Gazza was funnier, more spectacular, but screwed up a lot, costing the team in the long run, but sport is entertainment!!! HINT, HINT. John Barnes was right when he judged Alan better than Ronaldo for world number 1 forward at that time, but few in the media seemed to care, hounding poor ol' Alan until he got fed up and quit the England team.

As an interesting aside, some people seem to think that previous US prez GW Bush made his personal fortune from oil, when he actually failed in the oil business, and made his money from a baseball team...and nope, I don't follow these yank field sports, or even know the rules, still keeping to soccer, cricket and rugby, when I look at those sports at all these days...mmm, maybe some ice hockey, now and again, but that's not really a "field sport" or is it....or, hurling and gaelic football if in an Irish pub...or... oh, good grief... :roll:

Obviously, I miss those lubricated pub conversations about football :wink:

Roger de Coverly
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Re: World economy

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:14 am

George Szaszvari wrote: Biggest sport in the world = a huge money spinner. Umm, Scotland? Some kind of private joke?
A reference to (Glasgow) Rangers perhaps, who notwithstanding being one of the two largest Scottish clubs have just declared themselves in administration. It's somewhat like US Chapter 10, where they have more or less run out of money but are seeking protection from creditors so as to avoid being closed down completely. In this case it's the UK's taxmen who may have ruled some of their methods of paying players as offside.

(edit) A plausible summary as to why HMRC have blown the whistle on Rangers is here
http://rangerstaxcase.com/2011/03/28/wh ... all-about/
(/edit)

Alistair Campbell
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Re: World economy

Post by Alistair Campbell » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:48 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
George Szaszvari wrote: Biggest sport in the world = a huge money spinner. Umm, Scotland? Some kind of private joke?
A reference to (Glasgow) Rangers perhaps, who notwithstanding being one of the two largest Scottish clubs have just declared themselves in administration. It's somewhat like US Chapter 10, where they have more or less run out of money but are seeking protection from creditors so as to avoid being closed down completely. In this case it's the UK's taxmen who may have ruled some of their methods of paying players as offside.

(edit) A plausible summary as to why HMRC have blown the whistle on Rangers is here
http://rangerstaxcase.com/2011/03/28/wh ... all-about/
(/edit)
Interesting you mention that blog - I've been following it avidly for months - learning (and almost instantly forgetting) masses about the law and finance.


George Szaszvari wrote:Their best was when Dalgliesh and Co crushed Holland in a World Cup game (1978 iirc) after they left themselves with too big a margin of goals to score to qualify, but they still won that game convincingly
Oh golly. Mendoza...3-2...Archie Gemmell....King Kenny...Argentina....Teofilo Cubillas..."Bud" Johnston...Reactivan...Ally MacLeod...

***continues to mutter incoherently to self until nurse comes and applies sedative***

John McKenna
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Re: World economy

Post by John McKenna » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:18 pm

Halftime?
Hi George, I agree that, despite his dubious credentials, Dr. Mahathir did hit the nail on the head with his comments about denial, etc.
Many governments, institutions, companies and individuals in Europe overspent and over-leveraged in the boom years and did so in denial of a bust.
He was right to say in order to recover Europe will have to get used to hard work and thrift, which are characteristics more commonly found in Asia these days.
Back to football... AC Milan-Arsenal isn't?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

George Szaszvari
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Re: World economy

Post by George Szaszvari » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:49 pm

Alistair Campbell wrote:
Oh golly. Mendoza...3-2...Archie Gemmell....King Kenny...Argentina....Teofilo Cubillas..."Bud" Johnston...Reactivan...Ally MacLeod...

***continues to mutter incoherently to self until nurse comes and applies sedative***
Pull yourself together, man, and pour me another pint of Gillespies... (hard to find in London, impossible to find here...I sometimes used to detour by the pub at London Bridge Stn just to remind myself how good that stuff really is...)

Arshad Ali
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Re: World economy

Post by Arshad Ali » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:55 am

John McKenna wrote:
Where's the growth?
Well, it's in the US - yesterday Obama announced his budget. (It included the repeal of G.W. Bush's tax cuts for Americans earning more than $250,000.) And, a White House spokesman said, "I think there is pretty broad agreement (that means between Democrats & Republicans) that the time for austerity is not today... Right now we have a recovery... and if we (the US) were to put in austerity measures it would take the economy the wrong way."
So, Europe is to continue to take the bitter austerity medicine while the US, which has the 2nd biggest debt in the world (behind only Japan), can postpone it and take growth hormones instead. The thing is the US & Japan are too big to fail, while Europe is cracked enough to be split asunder if the markets don't get their debt euros and pounds of flesh.
There's no "recovery" in the USA. It's political rhetoric backed by statistical sleight-of-hand. Here is a piece by Paul Craig Roberts explaining the dodgy stats behind talk of "recovery":

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/01 ... -lesson-1/

John McKenna
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Re: World economy

Post by John McKenna » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:18 pm

Very interesting comment. And thanks for pointing out the article.
Dodgy stats and rhetoric are being used. Part of the latter is Chancellor G. Osbourne saying it is all a matter of confidence. He's right, it was the overconfidence of financiers and the creation of giant cuckoo banks that is destroying people's nest eggs and throwing down fledgling economies in Europe.
For a case in point see -
http://www.cityam.com/forum/Ireland-pla ... -contagion
Last edited by John McKenna on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Arshad Ali
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Re: World economy

Post by Arshad Ali » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:01 pm

John McKenna wrote:Part of the latter is Chancellor G. Osbourne's saying it is all a matter of confidence. He's right, but it was the overconfidence of financiers and the creation of giant cuckoo banks that is destroying people's nest eggs and throwing down fledgling ecomomies in Europe.
The post-industrial economies of the US and UK relied for their "growth" on property price inflation. This allowed for the creation of a huge mountain of what lefties call "fictitious capital." When that melted -- as it was bound to do some day -- it left a lot of ruined people and ruined institutions, and exposed "growth" for the charade it was. The days of "growth" are over -- these lasted from roughly 1945 to 1973. Since then there has been recourse to speculative bubbles (dot-com, property), to increasingly squeezing the working class (higher unemployment because of automation, offshoring, stagnating real wages, stripping away the welfare state, and financialisng and commoditising what used to be social goods such as education, medical care, and council housing), and fiddling with the inflation and unemployment stats. In short, the financial crisis of the last few years is grounded in intractable problems going back well over three decades. "Sound banking" is not going to restore "growth" -- unsound banking and financial practices were necessary to promote the illusion of sound economies, to keep up consumption even while the workforce became increasingly poorer, to draw in money from surplus generating countries like China and Germany.

With regard to the condition of the workforce, 30-40% of the European workforce is now "precariat" -- see this excellent 10-minute video:

http://globalsociology.com/2011/02/28/the-precariat/

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: World economy

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:18 pm

That's a bit gloomy. Any optimism anywhere?

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