The most ridiculous article ever published by the Guardian?

[Ian Kingston]

I would note that the majority of killings are carried out with weapons which are not guns

'Carried out' where? This statement is true only for the UK where, of course, access to guns is strictly controlled. So, in 2011-12, there were 550 murders in the UK, of which only 39 were by fire arms.

For America, the statement is nonsense. Over a similar period (latest 2009-10), there were 13,756 murders in the US, of which 9,203 were by fire arms. The annual rate for gun-related murder in the US fluctuates between 67-70% of all murders over the past two decades.

The system ate my reply, but it was pretty much the same. Here are the FBI's figures for the USA (2005-2010):

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... rtbl08.xls

The only bright spot is that the numbers are falling.

[Louise Sinclair]

My family are used to possessing fire arms and we have yet to commit mass murder.As for only discussing murder methods in the USA - general unavailability of guns did not prevent the bombers from causing a massacre on London't tubes several years ago.

[Alex Holowczak]

As for only discussing murder methods in the USA - general unavailability of guns did not prevent the bombers from causing a massacre on London't tubes several years ago.

Indeed it didn't. But how many other attempts at mass murder in the years since 2005 have the unavailability of guns prevented?

[Jonathan Rogers]

Are we seriously debating this? This is an "only in America" issue, alongside "should we teach creationism in science classes?"

[Andrew Bak]

Are we seriously debating this? This is an "only in America" issue, alongside "should we teach creationism in science classes?"

Did you see the story from the Guardian about groups sympathetic towards Creationist schools being given approval for running free schools?

[Ian Kingston]

Are we seriously debating this? This is an "only in America" issue, alongside "should we teach creationism in science classes?"

You're probably right about guns, but the creationists are trying their best here:

http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/wh ... ee-schools

But that's probably best left to other forums too.

[George Szaszvari]

I would note that the majority of killings are carried out with weapons which are not guns

'Carried out' where? This statement is true only for the UK where, of course, access to guns is strictly controlled. So, in 2011-12, there were 550 murders in the UK, of which only 39 were by fire arms.

For America, the statement is nonsense. Over a similar period (latest 2009-10), there were 13,756 murders in the US, of which 9,203 were by fire arms. The annual rate for gun-related murder in the US fluctuates between 67-70% of all murders over the past two decades.

The system ate my reply, but it was pretty much the same. Here are the FBI's figures for the USA (2005-2010):

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... rtbl08.xls

The only bright spot is that the numbers are falling.

Wow, having been away from the forum lately it is warming to see such a lively and meandering thread! I often debate 2nd Amendment issues with friends on FB, my latest contribution starting out thus: "Yet another example of a known basketcase being able to purchase firearms when his mental/ emotional instability was the vital info that should have been shared with the office for firearms background checks to prevent it.... ". Someone mentioned lack of political will at the Federal level: such omissions in the background check process can and should be fixed, something which nobody on either side of the debate can reasonably object to. There is a massive amount of emotional stuff aired about guns, most of it tedious nonsense, so I'll restrict myself to the above for now.

John McKenna, I can hardly believe that you agreed with most of the "ridiculous" article about the Koreas (I hope I've got this right), almost an apologist for a vile totalitarian regime, even if your observations about related matters are to the point. I suppose it is a matter of degree.

Although not a great Vonnegut fan I had to read Slaughterhouse 5 (a long time ago) since it was based on Vonnegut's personal experiences as a POW in Dresden during the 1945 fire bombing, and weaving the sci-fi aspect into it was interesting. I recall it as a good read at the time. I should reread it.

[John McKenna]

Welcome back, George. Did you once identify yourself a bit with Vonnegut's Billy Pilgrim character in the book, I wonder? It would be interesting to hear what people think about re-reading books and articles years after they first did so. The results might be surprising. One of the ideas in Slaughterhouse-5 was to show how one's perspective on events would shift if one could move in time and space and knew the beginning and the end of things while still in the middle of it all.
I will not try to explain myself now on the Korean front as I need time to prepare my defence. At least nobody has accused me of also being an apologist for the late Charlton Heston and the NRA, yet. (Though as Orwell pointed out, it is quite possible to reconcile opposing views by doublethink and support them with a forked-tongue but I leave that to all the mainstream politicians and those who believe them enough to vote for them.)

[John McKenna]

S Korea good, N Korea bad is like the hollow slogan 4-legs good, 2-legs bad in Animal Farm.
Old S Korean dissident forcibly detained, on return from N Korea, under law that allows prosecution of anyone speaking in favour of the North or communism... That's not about trying to condone the North's large-scale oppression by comparing it to the South's blanket repression. It's about western journalists/media automatically turning a blind eye South simply because in their other eye the North can do only wrong.

[George Szaszvari]

Welcome back, George. Did you once identify yourself a bit with Vonnegut's Billy Pilgrim character in the book, I wonder? It would be interesting to hear what people think about re-reading books and articles years after they first did so. The results might be surprising. One of the ideas in Slaughterhouse-5 was to show how one's perspective on events would shift if one could move in time and space and knew the beginning and the end of things while still in the middle of it all.
I will not try to explain myself now on the Korean front as I need time to prepare my defence. At least nobody has accused me of also being an apologist for the late Charlton Heston and the NRA, yet. (Though as Orwell pointed out, it is quite possible to reconcile opposing views by doublethink and support them with a forked-tongue but I leave that to all the mainstream politicians and those who believe them enough to vote for them.)

I suppose it was impossible not to identify with Billy to some degree, but your bringing it up here motivates me to read it again and get an up to date perspective. My favorite Orwell book was "Down and Out in Paris and London", one of several books I considered required reading in my traveling and hitch hiking days around Europe, sometimes penniless, when I had to find some local work to get by. Another book I had with me for a time on such travels was Pirsig's "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", kind of a double whammy since I used to be a keen motorcyclist, as well as an amateur philosopher/psychologist (which everyone, who isn't just a superficial air head, must be to some extent,) but I don't have the motivation to read that again nowadays. No need to defend your stance on the N-S Korea comparisons to me... I understand that you realize the evil of north military regime, while refusing to overlook the BS that goes on in the south simply because of political expediency, the need of certain powers to support the south while undermining the north. I've expressed similarly "weird" views against the prevailing consensus now and again on other matters, and have gotten more than a few raised eyebrows, too, while trying to get others out of their mental/emotional straight jackets; holding too hard and fast to categorical conclusions about most things in life seems equivalent to stagnation to me. Keep up the great input here, John. I enjoy your postings when I get the chance to look in here.

[John McKenna]

Hi George,
Was your flight to America on Concord? That lofty perspective on the world and its woes still embodies the highest European ideals, mixed with eastern Zen and western Easy Rid(er)ing... If I go on we'll soon be dubbed the forum's Flight of the Conchords.
Hey, could ask Alfred E. Newman (aka Geoff Chandler) to book a spot at the Edinburg Fringe - if he joins in we can be billed as The Three Stooges of Socialism, Anarchism & Satyrism!?
Sad to say, I'm plumb (as opposed to plum) tuckered out. Bye

[John McKenna]

Or, according to the critics, The Three Asses of Anarchism, Socialism & Satire.

[John McKenna]

My Parthian shot to 'Brutus'

the noblest Roman of them all...

who once wrote -

"I have personal experience of political disputes based on ancient events of which everyone has an opinion, but of which no one can justifiably state that the ancient events should have any relevance to present circumstances..."

I found this view very strange since the basis of modern political disputes in ancient events is called a historical one. If we agree to ignore historical events because someone says he cannot see their relevance, or because no one can justifiably state their relevance to his satisfaction, we are in danger of becoming like the lotus-eaters of the Odyssey and forgetting our way home.

'Brutus' also wrote -

"Contrary to what you aver, it's a commonplace of human experience to find that there is often only one side to a story. That certainly applies to North Korea."

This is another dangerous view of history. In Orwell's 1984 history is not forgotten but is constantly rewritten from one viewpoint only - that of the ruling party line and its perpetual war. (Currently we do not live in a state of a perpetual war but we always have 'enemies' and as each one is defeated - either militarily or economically - others must be found, even if that means fighting an "axis of evil" or a "war on terror".)

I was interested to see that 'Brutus' thought the American piece mentioned in this thread was worse than the Korean one. I have my opinion as to why he thinks that, and if I am only half right there is, yet, hope for us all.

[George Szaszvari]

Hi George,
Was your flight to America on Concord? That lofty perspective on the world and its woes still embodies the highest European ideals, mixed with eastern Zen and western Easy Rid(er)ing... If I go on we'll soon be dubbed the forum's Flight of the Conchords.
Hey, could ask Alfred E. Newman (aka Geoff Chandler) to book a spot at the Edinburg Fringe - if he joins in we can be billed as The Three Stooges of Socialism, Anarchism & Satyrism!?
Sad to say, I'm plumb (as opposed to plum) tuckered out. Bye

I managed to avoid the Concord crash, so this incarnation continues... perhaps giving a less lofty view of things. Yes, I find Geoff one of the saner contributors to the forum, and the Three Stooges is apt: I still find slapstick amusing when in the right mood.