Football incidents

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
LawrenceCooper
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Football incidents

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:12 pm


Roger de Coverly
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:22 pm

The second one is a useful counterpoint to those who would default late arrivals and try to justify their stance by asserting incorrectly that no sports allow it.

I'm not sure of the chess analogy for the first incident. Playing a move for an opponent absent from the board and short of time possibly.

Dan Lambourne
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Dan Lambourne » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:03 pm

In the second instance, according to the rule book, they could have started as both sides had seven or more players.
There is an unwritten rule, certainly in the leagues I have played in, where the referee can't start the game until the goalkeeper is on the pitch. Any other late arrivals would have to wait for the referee to allow them on to the field, otherwise they could get yellow carded.

I do not know if there is an official sanction for lateness in football, but the Evesham Sunday League fined each team £1 for each minute they were late for kick-off last year, except for exceptional circumstances.
As far as I know late referees were not fined.

The chess analogy for the first could be the team captain sticking an extra pawn on the board whilst the two players and the arbiter were not looking to stop certain checkmate.

David Gilbert
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Re: Football incidents

Post by David Gilbert » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:21 pm

Dan Lambourne wrote:There is an unwritten rule, certainly in the leagues I have played in, where the referee can't start the game until the goalkeeper is on the pitch.
Not unwritten Dan, Law 3 states "A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven players, one of whom is the goalkeeper."

Dan Lambourne
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Dan Lambourne » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:36 pm

David Gilbert wrote:Not unwritten Dan, Law 3 states "A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven players, one of whom is the goalkeeper."
You are correct, I misread it, as the full line from the law states:-
A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven players, one of whom is the goalkeeper. A match may not start if either team consists of fewer than seven players.
My brain ignored the first sentence once I read the "A match may not start" bit.

Dan

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:53 pm

Dan Lambourne wrote:
David Gilbert wrote:Not unwritten Dan, Law 3 states "A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven players, one of whom is the goalkeeper."
You are correct, I misread it, as the full line from the law states:-
A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven players, one of whom is the goalkeeper. A match may not start if either team consists of fewer than seven players.
My brain ignored the first sentence once I read the "A match may not start" bit.

Dan
As I understand it, if the goalkeeper is sent off, then any player can step into that role.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:30 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Dan Lambourne wrote:
David Gilbert wrote:Not unwritten Dan, Law 3 states "A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven players, one of whom is the goalkeeper."
You are correct, I misread it, as the full line from the law states:-
A match is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than eleven players, one of whom is the goalkeeper. A match may not start if either team consists of fewer than seven players.
My brain ignored the first sentence once I read the "A match may not start" bit.

Dan
As I understand it, if the goalkeeper is sent off, then any player can step into that role.
Correct. It's happened before where the goalkeeper is sent off, and the team have no substitutes remaining, so an outfield player has to dress in a goalkeeper's uniform and play in goal.

This isn't true in ice hockey. A game of ice hockey is played by two teams, each consisting of not more than twenty players in the NHL, two of which are goaltenders. Not more than six players can be on the ice at any one time.

There's no obligation to have a goaltender at all. Indeed, it is often part of the strategy to deliberately pull your goaltender, and replace him with an extra skater in the two following scenarios:
(1) late in the game, if the team is losing by 1 or 2 goals, in a bid to take advantage of the 6-on-5 and try to score. Nothing to lose in that scenario. It's a strategy that works, sometimes comically.
(2) if the opposing team has a penalty called on them. As soon as an opposing player's stick takes control of the puck, play is stopped and the penalty enforced. Between the penalty being called and the penalty being enforced, the goaltender is switched for an attacker, giving that team a 6-on-5 advantage. Unfortunately, there are instances in scenario (2), when it nevertheless goes wrong...

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:39 am

The comparision is having to play a game (usually a league match) with a pawn missing
and then remembering to replace the missing pawn with the first captured one.

Sat down once to play at tournament game and some vandal had coloured the
top of a white pawn blue.
I swapped it with the board next to me but was seen by the player (George Coutts)
and he swapped it back.

"I don't want to play with this thing." I moaned.

"Just sac it, it's what you do usually." he replied.

So I did and won in under 20 moves.

Recall a club who were a Knight missing and instructed one of it's members
to nick a Knight at an away match....They did...it was the wrong colour!

Saw Andy Goram (a superb goalie) score a goal for Hibs v Morton from a kick
out in his own penalty area. It bounced once and straight into the Morton net.

Orient lost a goal like that v Tranmere a few seasons back but that was a goal kick.

John Hickman
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Re: Football incidents

Post by John Hickman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:18 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Sat down once to play at tournament game and some vandal had coloured the
top of a white pawn blue.
I swapped it with the board next to me but was seen by the player (George Coutts)
and he swapped it back.

"I don't want to play with this thing." I moaned.

"Just sac it, it's what you do usually." he replied.

So I did and won in under 20 moves.
It would be funny if next time you play George Coutts, you had a set where some vandal had coloured the
top of the white Queen :) blue

Alex Holowczak
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:47 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:Saw Andy Goram (a superb goalie) score a goal for Hibs v Morton from a kick out in his own penalty area. It bounced once and straight into the Morton net.
Andy Goram is notable as one of Scotland's dual internationals: He played international cricket and football for Scotland. England only has 12, of which Arthur Milton is the last; nearly 60 years ago. Are there (m)any other Scottish dual cricket-football internationals?

David Robertson
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Re: Football incidents

Post by David Robertson » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:21 pm

M J K Smith?

Brian Valentine
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Brian Valentine » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:35 pm

Clare Taylor?

Alistair Campbell
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Alistair Campbell » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:06 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Andy Goram is notable as one of Scotland's dual internationals: He played international cricket and football for Scotland. Are there (m)any other Scottish dual cricket-football internationals?
How about Andy Goram? :evil:

I'm not aware of any other Scottish dual cricket-football internationalists. That is not to say there is none - a trawl through internationalists of the 19th century might be required to confirm the position. There are many dual Rugby-Cricket internationalists. I believe Heather Lang is a dual cricket-chess internationalist.

Although I've seen more than my fair share of football matches I am yet to see a goalkeeper score (in fact, I can't think of an occasion when I've even witnessed a goalkeeper score in a penalty shoot-out, although it has happened many times). I have seen outfield players in goal (but never a goalkeeper as an outfield player). A couple of years ago, I did see a substitute take the field without any player giving way, which was a first for me.

I hadn't seen George Coutts for nigh on 30 years, although I did see someone who looked a lot like him at New Bayview last month

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Football incidents

Post by LawrenceCooper » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:33 pm

Alistair Campbell wrote:I have seen outfield players in goal (but never a goalkeeper as an outfield player).
From memory, Stuart Pearce, when Man City, manager put a second goalkeeper on so he could throw David James up front. The striker on the bench wasn't amused.

Sure enough, via Wikipedia:

On the last day of the 2004–05 season, James was playing for City who needed to beat Middlesbrough to qualify for the UEFA Cup. With five minutes remaining the score was 1–1, when City's manager Stuart Pearce substituted midfielder Claudio Reyna for the substitute goalkeeper Nicky Weaver, and James was moved to play in attack for the remainder of the game. The unusual tactic almost worked when, in injury time, Middlesbrough defender Franck Queudrue conceded a penalty by handling a cross that was aimed at James. However, Robbie Fowler's penalty was saved by Middlesbrough goalkeeper Mark Schwarzer and so City did not qualify for the UEFA Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_James_(footballer)

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Football incidents

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:51 pm

The late Les Sealey also once went on as an outfield player for West Ham towards the end of his goalkeeping career.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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