The English Language

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
Andy Stoker
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Andy Stoker » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:24 am

I think you would be able to guess that one Soheil... it's about the idea of a sea washing onto a beach. As the "tide comes in" the water goes higher and higher up the beach. If you were attacking from the sea, you might think that eventually the sea would wash completely over the beach and you would be victorious. But the tide turns - the "High Tide" point is reached and then the sea begins to go out - the waves reach less and less far up the beach - the tide has turned.
Now imagine you are playing chess - your attack seems to build - gradually you seem to be beating the opponent - perhaps you think that it is only a matter of time before you break through and win. But then... perhaps you make a mistake, perhaps the opponent finds a strong resource and begins to push you back. Now it seems only time before she or he wins. The tide has turned.
With the sea tide, it turns because of natural forces - primarily the gravitational pull of the moon. In chess, the tide generally turns because the attacker makes a mistake or the defender finds a great move / idea.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: The English Language

Post by Michael Farthing » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:56 am

The idea that Andy explains is also more familiar to English speakers because it is used in a famous speech from Shakepeare's play Julius Caesar, "There is a tide in the affairs of men that taken at the full leads on to victory". (though in the play this advice, urging immediate battle, is taken and actually leads to disaster).
Rejoiner

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:08 pm

Does "tide" mean ups and "downs"?

Andy Stoker
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Andy Stoker » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:40 pm

Google translate gives the farsi as: جزر و مد

Dictionary meaning: the alternate rising and falling of the sea, usually twice in each lunar day at a particular place, due to the attraction of the moon and sun.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:46 pm

Andy Stoker wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:40 pm
Google translate gives the farsi as: جزر و مد

Dictionary meaning: the alternate rising and falling of the sea, usually twice in each lunar day at a particular place, due to the attraction of the moon and sun.
Yes, but I wonder what does it mean in chess context.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:48 pm

And, does conquering the enemy king, mean checkmating it?
Last edited by soheil_hooshdaran on Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18521
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:06 am

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:46 pm

Yes, but I wonder what does it mean in chess context.
"Turning of the tide" is a long standing metaphor in the English Language, going back at least as far as Shakespeare. I don't think there's any specific chess only meaning.

Andy Stoker
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Andy Stoker » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:42 pm

I agree with Roger. I tried to explain what this metaphor means in a chess context:
"Now imagine you are playing chess - your attack seems to build - gradually you seem to be beating the opponent - perhaps you think that it is only a matter of time before you break through and win. But then... perhaps you make a mistake, perhaps the opponent finds a strong resource and begins to push you back. Now it seems only time before she or he wins. The tide has turned.
With the sea tide, it turns because of natural forces - primarily the gravitational pull of the moon. In chess, the tide generally turns because the attacker makes a mistake or the defender finds a great move / idea."

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:40 am

OK, why didn't he just say "ups and downs"?

Andy Stoker
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Andy Stoker » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:59 am

I don't know Soheil - but it's likely that tide seems like a better metaphor for what the writer is describing (you don't give the context) .... it was all going one way then something happened and the other players started to gain the ascendancy. The tide turned.

"Ups and downs" suggests to me (a) more frequent oscillations (b) a relatively random process - such as "in life, we must be prepared for the ups and the downs". OR "I started a chess club and we were never sure how many people would come each night - sometimes more than the average - sometimes fewer. We just had to cope with the ups and the downs."

Compare that with "I started a chess club and at first very few people came - then the news began to spread, the tide turned and we gradually got more and more members". Not great English - but you see the difference?

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:45 pm

Yes, so tide is situation that was going on for a longer time?
and how does turn of tide differ from turn of table?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18521
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:59 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:45 pm

and how does turn of tide differ from turn of table?
Different metaphor, much the same usage.

Turning the tide is what you might see in a tidal river estuary. As low tide approaches, the river runs towards the sea, The tide then turns and the flow of water runs back inland.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:17 pm

Thanks.
And, does conquering the enemy king, mean checkmating it?

Andy Stoker
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Andy Stoker » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:38 am

Yes it does ... perhaps a sense of the final battle leading up to the mate as well - would have to see the context. But yes, it means checkmating it.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:58 pm

Thanks

Post Reply