The English Language

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: forfeit

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun May 11, 2014 5:58 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote: forfeiting a game, losing on time, flagging, falling the clock, etc.
"Forfeiting a game"usually means not showing up at all, or at least not before the default time. So no game is played, but for a competition it counts as a win for the opponent and a loss for you.

"Losing on time" is where the flag on the chess clock indicates that you haven't completed enough moves in the required time, or that your time has expired.

"Flagging" is mostly an American expression for telling someone their flag has fallen and they potentially have lost on time. "Falling the clock" isn't one familiar in British English.

John Upham
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Re: forfeit

Post by John Upham » Sun May 11, 2014 6:06 pm

A common phrase, perhaps amongst less scrupulous players, might be

"I flagged him" or "I am going to flag him" or words to that effect.

Typically used by a player when the position on the board does not merit a win but that player is able to hack out moves in a level position until their oppononent looses on time or makes a blunder or two.

Less of a problem since the adoption of incremental time controls compared with guillotine type time controls.
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Sean Hewitt
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Re: forfeit

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun May 11, 2014 6:37 pm

Flagging, as far as I'm aware, refers to playing on in a [usually] lost position in an attempt solely to win on time. e.g. "He was flagging him" or "He flagged me".

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: forfeit

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun May 11, 2014 6:57 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
soheil_hooshdaran wrote: forfeiting a game, losing on time, flagging, falling the clock, etc.
"Forfeiting a game"usually means not showing up at all, or at least not before the default time. So no game is played, but for a competition it counts as a win for the opponent and a loss for you.

"Losing on time" is where the flag on the chess clock indicates that you haven't completed enough moves in the required time, or that your time has expired.

"Flagging" is mostly an American expression for telling someone their flag has fallen and they potentially have lost on time. "Falling the clock" isn't one familiar in British English.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: forfeit

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun May 11, 2014 8:21 pm

I've seen the term "flagged" being used both for someone losing on time (for whatever reason) and for two people with seconds left merely blitzing out moves to get a win on time. The latter is sometimes referred to as "playing for a win on time". It is what rule 10.2 is meant to prevent, but sometimes still happens if someone severely mishandles their time and ends up in a position where a 10.2 claim is unlikely to be accepted and the opponent decides to play on and claim the win on time.

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: forfeit

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun May 11, 2014 8:38 pm

GM Seirawan explained forfeit thus in the Glossary:
Forfeit:See time Control. A less common way to forfeit is to arrive for a game more than an hour after it was scheduled to start.

Time Control: The amount of time in which each player must play a specified number of moves. In international competition, the typical time control is 40 moves in 2 hours for each player .After each player has made 40 moves, each is given an additional amount of time(...).If a player uses up his time, but has not yet made the mandatory number of moves, he loses the game by forfeit, .... .

Ian Thompson
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Re: forfeit

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun May 11, 2014 8:59 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:GM Seirawan explained forfeit thus in the Glossary:
Time Control: The amount of time in which each player must play a specified number of moves. In international competition, the typical time control is 40 moves in 2 hours for each player .After each player has made 40 moves, each is given an additional amount of time(...).If a player uses up his time, but has not yet made the mandatory number of moves, he loses the game by forfeit, .... .
Americans may use the term "forfeit" in that way, but British people would not. To a Briton "forfeit" would mean a loss through infringement of the rules (e.g. not arriving before the default time, or being penalised by the arbiter, for some rule infringement, with loss if the game). Running out of time would not be described as a forfeit. That would just be referred to as a loss on time.

E Michael White
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Re: forfeit

Post by E Michael White » Sun May 11, 2014 10:15 pm

The word "forfeit" is often used incorrectly by ENG arbiters. For example Stewart Reuben has on this forum spoken of "Forfeiting a Player" . The arbiter may direct a point is lost due to the players action or lack of action but that is not forfeiting a player.

If you search this forum for use of the word forfeit it occurs over 150 times; many of these are incorrect usage in ENG English. The most useful definition in my view that I have seen on the internet is :-

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=forfeit

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: forfeit

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon May 12, 2014 3:58 am

E Michael White wrote:The word "forfeit" is often used incorrectly by ENG arbiters. For example Stewart Reuben has on this forum spoken of "Forfeiting a Player" . The arbiter may direct a point is lost due to the players action or lack of action but that is not forfeiting a player.

If you search this forum for use of the word forfeit it occurs over 150 times; many of these are incorrect usage in ENG English. The most useful definition in my view that I have seen on the internet is :-

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=forfeit
I have search the term in general dictionaries, but then I ended up with this question.
Do you mean that the usage of forfeit by Seirawan is wrong?
And do you mean it means getting deprived of something?

Richard Bates
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Re: forfeit

Post by Richard Bates » Mon May 12, 2014 7:32 am

1) as with any specialised discipline the usage of words in chess does not always coincide perfectly with "dictionary" definitions, and/or their usage in everyday speak.

2) this is clearly an American book written by an American author. This is an English forum populated mainly by English people. The latter being not necessarily best placed to interpret the meaning of words and language used by the former. Or indeed those which some might think are misused.

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: forfeit

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon May 12, 2014 10:59 am

Richard Bates wrote:1) as with any specialised discipline the usage of words in chess does not always coincide perfectly with "dictionary" definitions, and/or their usage in everyday speak.

2) this is clearly an American book written by an American author. This is an English forum populated mainly by English people. The latter being not necessarily best placed to interpret the meaning of words and language used by the former. Or indeed those which some might think are misused.
Do you also think that the world is misused in the book?

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: forfeit

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon May 12, 2014 12:05 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
soheil_hooshdaran wrote:GM Seirawan explained forfeit thus in the Glossary:
Time Control: The amount of time in which each player must play a specified number of moves. In international competition, the typical time control is 40 moves in 2 hours for each player .After each player has made 40 moves, each is given an additional amount of time(...).If a player uses up his time, but has not yet made the mandatory number of moves, he loses the game by forfeit, .... .
Americans may use the term "forfeit" in that way, but British people would not. To a Briton "forfeit" would mean a loss through infringement of the rules (e.g. not arriving before the default time, or being penalised by the arbiter, for some rule infringement, with loss if the game). Running out of time would not be described as a forfeit. That would just be referred to as a loss on time.
Then what is the difference between 'forfeit' and being penalized?

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Re: forfeit

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon May 12, 2014 1:05 pm

Hi soheil,

forfeit has been explained.

'penalized' means you have been punished for something you have done wrong.
Something you have done that is against the rules of the game.

The player turned up late for the game and was penalized by being forced to forfeit the game.

In a note to a chess move the word 'penalized' should not be used but I have seen it.

13.Bb5? looks OK but this move will be penalized in a few moves time.

Means 13.Bb5? looks like a natural move but as the game shows this move is a mistake.

13.Bb5, although apparently bad, was a legal move. It does not warrent a penalty. No rule was broken.

Some of the trouble you are having is you are asking questions on an English site about an American writer.

We spell 'penalized' - 'penalised'.

Although both countries write and speak in English they often spell things differently.

In chess terms you will often see:

Centre (English) - Center (American)
Colour (English) - Color (American)

Also the Americans do use different terms and phrases in their books like 'flagging'.
Without sounding rude if you are translating an American book then maybe an American
Chess site is the place to go.

You are double transalting. From American (slang) into English (proper) into Iranian.
It should be OK (with a bit of effort) but it may lead to a mis-leading note creeping in
that will mean the complete opposite of what was meant.

Ian Thompson
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Re: forfeit

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon May 12, 2014 1:28 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Ian Thompson wrote:
soheil_hooshdaran wrote:GM Seirawan explained forfeit thus in the Glossary:
Time Control: The amount of time in which each player must play a specified number of moves. In international competition, the typical time control is 40 moves in 2 hours for each player .After each player has made 40 moves, each is given an additional amount of time(...).If a player uses up his time, but has not yet made the mandatory number of moves, he loses the game by forfeit, .... .
Americans may use the term "forfeit" in that way, but British people would not. To a Briton "forfeit" would mean a loss through infringement of the rules (e.g. not arriving before the default time, or being penalised by the arbiter, for some rule infringement, with loss if the game). Running out of time would not be described as a forfeit. That would just be referred to as a loss on time.
Then what is the difference between 'forfeit' and being penalized?
A forfeit is an example of a penalty. Other possible penalties are listed in the Laws of Chess (Article 13.4 in the current laws; Article 12.9 in the new laws to be introduced on 1 July).

You can also see in the new laws that a forfeit is defined as "To lose a game because of an infringement of the Laws."

soheil_hooshdaran
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commodity

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Tue May 13, 2014 10:12 am

Hi.

What does it mean that

'Unlike a combination, a sacrifice is not always a calculable commodity...'

?Thanks in advance

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