The English Language

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
John McKenna
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Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:00 am

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm
Many thanks. But still confused
As I understood, the phrase can mean excuse, right?
Also, it can mean anything can be made useful.
Does it mean in my case that "anything is good"?

Context:
"Rxd7
Grist for the mill! Now c6 falls and I get all of my material back - with dividents!"
"... Asked if it would be embarrassing to have another male leader, Miss Phillips told Sky News’ Ridge on Sunday: “I think it will be embarrassing and what’s more, it gives absolute *grist to the mill* and ammunition to our other side."

NB: Miss Phillips is standing in the leadership election to decide the replacement leader of the (British?) Labour Party. (They're having a Great British Political Bake Off.)

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jess-phillips ... 00701.html

Therefore ammunition (bullets, shells, etc.) is "grist to the mill" (absolutely necessary and fit for purpose) for guns.

Guns are almost useless for war, policing, etc. without ammunition.

Just as (wind)mills are almost useless without corn (grist) to grind into flour (to make bread, cakes, etc.)

So, 'grist' (corn) is absolutely necessary and fit for purpose for use in a mill.

It's that just right thing for something else to be able to do whatever it was made to do.

Do you get it now?

NB: Early in this thread a pun was made on the name of one of the ECF graders - Mr. H. Grist. (Please do not be confused if you find mention of Homepride flour graders on the Internet for they are just little cartoon characters in bowler hats- unlike the ECF graders who are men of substance, integrity & often wear many different hats.)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Andy Stoker
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Re: The English Language

Post by Andy Stoker » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:20 am

"Grist for the mill" is similar to "Fuel for the fire" .... something that keeps the entity going. It doesn't mean "excuse"

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:46 am

Many thanks

soheil_hooshdaran
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Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:01 am

Andy Stoker wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:20 am
"Grist for the mill" is similar to "Fuel for the fire" .... something that keeps the entity going. It doesn't mean "excuse"
so it mean necessary, or efficient?

Andy Stoker
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Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:23 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by Andy Stoker » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:15 am

It's something that can be used in a positive way

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:15 am

Andy Stoker wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:15 am
It's something that can be used in a positive way
In what way it can be useful?

John McKenna
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Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:33 am

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:15 am
Andy Stoker wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:15 am
It's something that can be used in a positive way
In what way it can be useful?
Going back to your original question -
soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm
Many thanks. But still confused
As I understood, the phrase can mean excuse, right?
Also, it can mean anything can be made useful.
Does it mean in my case that "anything is good"?

Context:
"Rxd7
Grist for the mill! Now c6 falls and I get all of my material back - with dividents!"
Given the limited context you supplied - it is probably the case that "Rxd7", most likely an exchange sacrifice RxB is "grist to the mill', i.e. absolutely the right thing to do in the circumstances of the (not-)given position as "now c6 falls and I (White presumably) get all of my material back - with dividends!"

Those last two words ("with dividends") mean - a significant advantage also accrues (to White') as a result of doing the absolutely appropriate exchange sac (the 'grist') in the position ("to the mill") that requires it in order to make the whole combination work to White's advantage. I.e. getting all his material back and some other significant advantage(s).
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
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Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:23 pm

Here is a link to the game. The position occurs after the 16th move.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1458901

soheil_hooshdaran
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Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:44 am

Why is it the right thing to do?
And I think you mean the only right thing
Does the sentence translate to "this move keeps the fire of White's combination alive" or "turning the mill wheel"?

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:58 am

If something is said to be "grist to the mill" it means that it is useful for a particular purpose or helps to create a favourable opportunity.

A direct translation into your language of "Rxd7 helps to create a favourable opportunity" would probably be good enough to basically convey the idea that "grist to the mill" gives to readers of the English language original.

Your two translations, above, go further towards the sense of a thing - such as a machine (or even a chess combination) going through its motions and working appropriately.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2927
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:04 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:58 am
If something is said to be "grist to the mill" it means that it is useful for a particular purpose or helps to create a favourable opportunity.

A direct translation into your language of "Rxd7 helps to create a favourable opportunity" would probably be good enough to basically convey the idea that "grist to the mill" gives to readers of the English language original.

Your two translations, above, go further towards the sense of a thing - such as a machine (or even a chess combination) going through its motions and working appropriately.
What opportunity does it create?
do you mean preparing for something? what is it?

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:18 pm

The 'opportunity' is the exchange sacrifice that iinitiates a combination that will eventually lead to a significant advantage to White after he has regained all his sacrificed material, and more, in the process.

Similar to opportunity the supply of corn ('grist') to a 'mill' creates for the production of flour, which can be sold at a profit to make bread, cakes, etc.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2927
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:06 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:18 pm
The 'opportunity' is the exchange sacrifice that iinitiates a combination that will eventually lead to a significant advantage to White after he has regained all his sacrificed material, and more, in the process.

Similar to opportunity the supply of corn ('grist') to a 'mill' creates for the production of flour, which can be sold at a profit to make bread, cakes, etc.
Didn't the combination start with Rxd6?
I don't get how a sacrifice can be an opportunity. I understand that a sacrifice can be made in a good opportunity, but how can it be an opportunity itself?

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:12 pm

No, in my view, 13.Rxd6 is a separate sac.

Anyway, you never supplied the game reference until "after the fact".

You began your question with (17.)Rxd7...

That was Yasser's opportunity to do a second RxB exchange sac and he did not miss it. He took his opportunity.

An 'opportunity' is the chance to do something, or not.

Both Yasser's rook sacs in that game were opportunities for him to take or to miss.

That's how come Rxd7 was an 'opportunity'.

Got it now?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2927
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:18 pm

So Why isn't it "grabbing the chance" or "snatching at the opportunity"?

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