The English Language

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
Ian Thompson
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Re: The English Language

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:15 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:18 pm
So Why isn't it "grabbing the chance" or "snatching at the opportunity"?
Both those phrases suggest White is taking advantage of a poor move by Black that will be gone if it's not exploited immediately. That doesn't apply to this move because Black started to go wrong many moves ago.

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:00 pm

And, in addition to what Ian T says above, I'm not sure if I would have taken the opportunity afforded by 13.Rxd6... if I had that position. I'd most probably played some other move there.

The second RxB exchange sac with 17.Rxd7 is not so much of an opportunity as it is hard to miss and therefore deserving of the epithet - "grist to the mill".
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:00 am

So "grist for the mill" means obvious?
Please tell me:
1-What's "the mill" here?
2-How does the sentence connect to the next sentence
3-How does it connect to the note to the previous move:"He is ready to castle again. I must attack forcefully or my attack will falter."
4-What is special about the move?
5- Why is there an exclamation mark "!"?

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:39 am

Yes, "grist to the mill" kind of means 'obvious' but "obviously appropriate" is better.

For what could be more obvious and appropriate than a farmer taking his corn ('grist') to be ground (see - to grind) at the place designed specifically to grind corn.

That place used to be a windmill (the 'mill' of your Q. 1.) a building with the means to convert wind energy into the driving force to grind the corn between two large grindstones.

In answer to your Q.2.- which "next sentence" do you mean?

In answer to your Q.3. - which 'note' do you mean?

In your Q.4. - which 'move' do you mean?

In your Q.5. - which '!' do you mean?

Please be more specific.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:21 am

John McKenna wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:39 am
Yes, "grist to the mill" kind of means 'obvious' but "obviously appropriate" is better.

For what could be more obvious and appropriate than a farmer taking his corn ('grist') to be ground (see - to grind) at the place designed specifically to grind corn.
the one
So it means normal? Reasonable? Logical? Which one?
That place used to be a windmill (the 'mill' of your Q. 1.) a building with the means to convert wind energy into the driving force to grind the corn between two large grindstones.
I mean what is likened to the mill here?
In answer to your Q.2.- which "next sentence" do you mean?

In answer to your Q.3. - which 'note' do you mean?

In your Q.4. - which 'move' do you mean?

In your Q.5. - which '!' do you mean?

Please be more specific.
The next sentence is:
Now c6 falls and I get all of my material back - with dividents!"
by the exclam, mark I mean the one at the end of "Grist for the mill"
I already gave the note to the previous move (4...Bd7)

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:36 am

The "grist' is the move(s) played in the position(s) on the chessboard, which is likened to a 'mill'.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:05 am

The '!' is used there to draw attention to what preceeded it.

"Grist to the mill!" is connected to the next sentence by the way the subsequent moves grind out the return of the invested material and more - just as when a mill works properly it does a similar thing.

What's special about the move 17.Rxd7 is that it is an exchange sacrifice and not a routine one, either.

It connects to the note in that if Yasser did not sac the second exchange there his opponent could've got out of his difficulties by castling.

All of the above is clear if you just stop and think about it.

The problem is that you have been 'thrown' into confusion by an English language idiom that you need to take to a linguist in your own country to get a translation you will be satisfied with.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:00 am

John McKenna wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:05 am
"Grist to the mill!" is connected to the next sentence by the way the subsequent moves grind out the return of the invested material and more - just as when a mill works properly it does a similar thing.
So why not "Cashing in the point" or "cooking" something or "harvesting the grains" or a similar thing is used?

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:26 am

"Cashing in the point" is a hackneyed phrase and tiny bit premature but could just about suffice though it gives a little too much sense of banality and finality.

"Harvesting the grain" (not grains) is also usable (though "bringing in the sheaves" might appeal more to an American writer).

"Cooking with gas" is more like ^grist to the mill"".and therefore the nearest idiom to the original found so far.

However, none of the above quite match the sense of a work in progress that is coming to fruition.

A combination of "cooking with gas" and "bringing in the sheaves" is closest to "grist to the mill", perhaps, but is laboured and somewhat artificial.

So, does all that and the rest of what has been said about this piece of annotation by Seirawan leave you still perplexed? Does confusion still rain in your brain? Or, do you understand the idiom "grist to the mill" but just cannot think of a way to express it in translation?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:27 pm

The penny hasn't dropped yet.
Given the definition:
PHRASE
If you say that something is grist for the mill, you mean that it is useful for a particular purpose or helps support someone's point of view., how is the sacrifice useful?
How can it be useful If it is"the final blow"? Or if it is useful, what is it useful for?

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:56 pm

Yes, we agree that "grist to the mill" indicates something is happening that is useful for a particular purpose.

No, it does not mean that it helps to support a point of view. (Where did you get that idea from?)

Finally, just above, how can you say - "how is the sacrifice useful? How can it be useful If it is"the final blow"? Or if it is useful, what is it useful for?"

Try reading the comments below the game you linked to -
soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:23 pm
Here is a link to the game. The position occurs after the 16th move.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1458901
Tell me then that the penny still hasn't dropped and I'll say it may never drop this time round.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:49 pm

John McKenna wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:56 pm
Yes, we agree that "grist to the mill" indicates something is happening that is useful for a particular purpose.

No, it does not mean that it helps to support a point of view. (Where did you get that idea from?)

Finally, just above, how can you say - "how is the sacrifice useful? How can it be useful If it is"the final blow"? Or if it is useful, what is it useful for?"

Try reading the comments below the game you linked to -
soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:23 pm
Here is a link to the game. The position occurs after the 16th move.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1458901
Tell me then that the penny still hasn't dropped and I'll say it may never drop this time round.
I simply copied the definition from Collins dictionary®, so a part of the definition doesn't apply here. But isn't the sacrifice better described as the final blow?
or is it that he noted a good opportunity and just snatched at it?
And if, as Andy pointed out, it is keeping an entity alive, what is the entity?

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:59 am

Ah, copying & pasting from dictionaries is no substitute for thinking for yourself.

17.Rxd7 is certainly another heavy 'blow' but since the game goes on for another 10 moves, with a N sac thrown in, it is not quite the "final blow".

Andy will have to answer for his 'entity'.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: The English Language

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:58 pm

something that you can use to your advantage is a tool, isn't it?
So what is the difference between grist for the mill and a tool/.

John McKenna
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Re: The English Language

Post by John McKenna » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:24 pm

A 'mill' is usually a building that houses a machine for grinding corn and so a mill is more than a tool.

A tool can usually be carried and used by hand.

A coffee grinder can be small enough to be used with two hands.

Perhaps a different way of saying "grist to the mill" could be "coffee to the (coffee) grinder".

Seirawan might like that version more than the old one he used.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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