Scotland and the referendum on independence

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:38 pm

Well, I was meaning it in a legalistic sort of way, Richard. By analogy, I'm a pacifist - but if my son (now 18) wanted to join the army I would be devastated but would recognise that it was his choice and that I had no business or right to interfere. From his point of view, of course, potential infuriation of his father might be a factor in his choice. [As it happens, despite my hopes that he would become a scientist or a mathematician he has decided to throw himself away on a Peace Studies course :-)].

So, at the end of the day it is up to Scotland to decide for itself, taking the risk of antagonising the rest of the UK into account. I happen to think that if it goes for independence it will do very well and I also think that the English (and certainly me, who loves its mountains and lochs) will ultimately wish it well and look forward to a sporting rivalry and a lasting affection. I would urge it to resist the disingenuous misinformation coming from our politicians and hold fast to its nationhood. Eire, basically successful, maintains good relationships with the UK; Europe has a host of small and very successful nations; Czechoslovakia bifurcated in peace and harmony. Scotland can do the same!

When it has done so, perhaps the Council of the North will reconvene and also shake off the shackles of London!

Richard Bates
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Richard Bates » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:53 pm

I'm sure Scotland could ultimately be successful as an independent nation, after some short to medium term pain. But not I think on the basis that the SNP have sold it to them. So the voters might get quite cross. They might also be quite surprised how quickly their politics ends up drifting rapidly rightwards.

Of course Czech Republic and Slovakia tried to maintain a currency union after their split. I think it lasted less than six weeks.

Graham Borrowdale

Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:15 pm

Richard Bates wrote:I'm sure Scotland could ultimately be successful as an independent nation, after some short to medium term pain. But not I think on the basis that the SNP have sold it to them. So the voters might get quite cross. They might also be quite surprised how quickly their politics ends up drifting rapidly rightwards.

Of course Czech Republic and Slovakia tried to maintain a currency union after their split. I think it lasted less than six weeks.
It does appear as though the population of Scotland are being offered an 'SNP Government', as though this were some sort of general election. What would be the opposition or alternative were Scotland to become an independent country? SNP could not remain in government for long, being, in effect, a single issue party.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:18 pm

Richard Bates wrote:Of course Czech Republic and Slovakia tried to maintain a currency union after their split. I think it lasted less than six weeks.
I remember reading somewhere that the split there included an agreement that neither country would lay claim to or use the old flag, though in the event the Czech Republic reneged on that and used much (all?) of the old flag in their new one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissoluti ... hoslovakia

One of the differences is that Czechoslovakia was a federal state, so easier to split (different languages as well).

If you want to verge into the trivial, they continued to use the same international telephone dialling code until 1997, and since then you have had to use international dialling to call between the countries. Imagine doing that for calling Scotland.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:19 pm

The SNP - or a large part of it - could well morph into a Scottish version of Fianna Fail post independence.

Which would, of course, be a bit far removed from the social democratic Elysium that Salmond is currently peddling - but hey, that's politics :)

(hopefully some others here have noted how chummy he is with K R Murdoch, though?)
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Mick Norris
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:29 am

I've not seen anything about how it might affect Berwick Rangers :lol:
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Gordon Cadden
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Gordon Cadden » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:13 am

Graham Borrowdale wrote:Has anyone actually asked the population of England whether they would like Scotland to become independent? Any polls out there?
The citizens of Scotland will decide whether they want to become independent. They do not need "yesterdays men", such as Paul McCartney, telling them how to vote.

Martin Crichton
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Martin Crichton » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:00 am

An a neutral I am of the opinion that the Scottish people should vote for independance. It is their country afterall. The days of wars in civilised nations are long gone. Wars today are won at the ballot box.

I predict a win for the Scottish people and independance.
Member of "the strongest amateur chess club in London" (Cavendish)

my views are not representative of any clubs or organisations.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:14 pm

"I've not seen anything about how it might affect Berwick Rangers :lol:"

A very good point...

Graham Borrowdale

Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:36 pm

Gordon Cadden wrote:
Graham Borrowdale wrote:Has anyone actually asked the population of England whether they would like Scotland to become independent? Any polls out there?
The citizens of Scotland will decide whether they want to become independent. They do not need "yesterdays men", such as Paul McCartney, telling them how to vote.
I was not suggesting they do.
I was curious as to what public opinion in England was, as compared to what our senior politicians think. Anecdotally, I suspect many people in England would not be upset if Scotland went its own way. No politician, however, wants to be remembered as the one who presided over the break up of the UK.

Graham Borrowdale

Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Graham Borrowdale » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:37 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:"I've not seen anything about how it might affect Berwick Rangers :lol:"

A very good point...
I am sure Berwick Rangers would be quite welcome if they moved to Milton Keynes... :twisted:

E Michael White
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by E Michael White » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:53 pm

Will the ECF have to stop using the current grading system as this was invented by Scotsman Kenneth Harkness? Richard Clarke later used it in ENG for Leagues and county matches in addition to tournaments.

Paul Bielby
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Paul Bielby » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:10 pm

Note that Berwick-on-Tweed has been in England since the 16th century. It is in Northumberland. It is not in Berwickshire, which is in Scotland. (somebody should tell Mike Basman who this year placed one of our Northumberland Gigafinalists in Berwickshire!) Berwick Rangers are currently the only English team to play in the Scottish League. I don't see that Scottish independence would effect that

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Michael Farthing » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:03 pm

That Berwick-on-Tweed has been in England all this time is not at all clear. At the outbreak of the Crimean War, war was declared on Russia by England, Scotland and Berwick-upon-Tweed because of doubt about the last-named's location. Sadly, Berwick-upon-Tweed was missed out of the peace treaty with the result that it remained at war with Russia for a further century.

On the visit of a Soviet premier to the UK as part of the slow thawing process of the Cold War (I believe it was Kruschev, but I'm writing from memory) a special visit was made to Berwick so that a peace treaty could be signed - a very nice publicity stunt. So nice and successful indeed that, in 1984 style, the exercise was repeated on the next visit by a Soviet premier (Kosygin I think) with the clear belief that the gullible public would not remember the previous occasion.

Alistair Campbell
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Re: Scotland and the referendum on independence

Post by Alistair Campbell » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:46 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:The SNP - or a large part of it - could well morph into a Scottish version of Fianna Fail post independence.

Which would, of course, be a bit far removed from the social democratic Elysium that Salmond is currently peddling - but hey, that's politics :)

(hopefully some others here have noted how chummy he is with K R Murdoch, though?)
I wouldn’t pretend to understand the Fianna Fail allusion. However, the SNP likes to style itself as a modern social democratic party; it has pulled off a neat trick by claiming to be anti-establishment despite being a party of government. Its campaign strategy appears to be to blame all the world’s ills on the Westminster establishment, and at the same time bang away relentlessly at the traditional Labour heartlands of west-central Scotland. I’m not sure how a post-referendum realignment would work after the vitriol that has been pouring out during the campaign, despite all the seeming policy similarities.

If I were Rupert, I would prepare for disappointment. Trump appears to have been dumped and Alex no longer writes fan letters to Fred Goodwin, although he still seems quite pally with Brian Souter, a man of great wealth, and, shall we say, interesting views.
Mick Norris wrote:I've not seen anything about how it might affect Berwick Rangers :lol:
I was down at Shielfield a few weeks ago for a pre-season friendly. I didn’t realise my SatNav needed to be reset to recognise an English address :shock: Sadly, I think the Russian (or possibly Crimean) stories are an urban myth (and may belong on the other thread…). Of course Gateshead failed to be elected to the Scottish League in 1974, and Gretna came home in 2002 after spending some time in the English non-league set-up. I think football will be largely unaffected by the result.
Martin Crichton wrote:I predict a win for the Scottish people and independance.
I don’t think independance is an option….
E Michael White wrote:Will the ECF have to stop using the current grading system as this was invented by Scotsman Kenneth Harkness?.
I’m not sure England wants to go down the (bumpy) road of not using things invented by Scots… :D

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