Greece debt crisis

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:07 pm

Aren't they being forced to privatise/sell off to foreigners loads of stuff??

We know the corrupt cabal of politicians who led Greece into this mess - they were (in case people have forgotten) voted out earlier this year (and one of the main political parties of those "bad old days" has been virtually destroyed) Some in the EU seem to want to teach these Syriza upstarts a lesson, though. After all, we can't let people get the idea there might actually be an alternative to neoliberal austerity can we......
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Matthew Turner
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Matthew Turner » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:08 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:Aren't they being forced to privatise/sell off to foreigners loads of stuff
Maybe? The last time this happened in 2010/11, no-one wanted to buy the assets, so the Greek just kept them and nothing changed. This time is different because the assets are being held in trust with some level of foreign oversight. This might allow some market reforms to take place eg breaking of union power at the Greek ports. Certainly this will not be popular with the left of Syriza and has elements of austerity because it will presumably lead to redundancies. However, I think most people would concede that a certain level of reforms are overdue.

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:33 pm

The Chinese may have a hand to play - they've been in Greece for some years already.

See -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23887509

and -

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100742210

The Russians are also waiting in the wings.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:10 pm

The latest "leaked" IMF report ( was there a time when everything wasn't leaked? ) seems to have turned things upside-down again. Just when you think it's over...
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:55 pm

NickFaulks wrote:The latest "leaked" IMF report ( was there a time when everything wasn't leaked? ) seems to have turned things upside-down again. Just when you think it's over...
Maybe you mean this -

http://article.wn.com/view/2015/07/14/G ... essure_on/

I've heard mention of a whip-round of all EU member states to raise some relief for the Greeks.

A figure of £400 million was mentioned as the UK's expected contrib.

Already that has been repudiated by the UK gov.

However, they may be forced to cough up.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Matthew Turner
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Matthew Turner » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:37 am

The deal on the table would see the IMF get their money back with 12.5bn returned from the 'privatisation fund'. This would enable the IMF to participate in any future bailouts/rescue package etc. because Greece would no longer be in arrears (unlike other organisations the IMF sticks to its rules). Now the IMF are basically saying that they are not interested in participating in any future deals because Greek debt in unsustainable.
That all seems like a very principled, open position from the IMF, but I wonder how happy some of the poor countries that finance the IMF be will that the bosses have told the Greeks (and the EU) that there is really no point paying us back.

NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:58 am

http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... ipras-live

includes "Prime minister David Cameron won a commitment in 2011 that the EFSM wouldn’t be used for eurozone bailouts. EU lawyers, though, appear to have concluded this was a political pledge - therefore breakable"

Brilliant!
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:57 am

Nick, I'm sure Dave will recognise the taste of his own medicine -

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fac ... ises/20429

He's already broken some more "promises" since the General Election with the Emergency Budget.

The one that takes the cake, though, was his old "no ifs, no buts, if I don't bring down immigration vote me out" promise.

Anyone who voted Tory after that broken promise must be in full agreement with those EU lawyers and Dave, himself, that "this was a political pledge - therefore breakable", just like all those other political pledges.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Phil Neatherway
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Phil Neatherway » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:08 pm

A David Cameron pledge isn't worth the paper it's written on.

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:36 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:The deal on the table would see the IMF get their money back with 12.5bn returned from the 'privatisation fund'. This would enable the IMF to participate in any future bailouts/rescue package etc. because Greece would no longer be in arrears (unlike other organisations the IMF sticks to its rules). Now the IMF are basically saying that they are not interested in participating in any future deals because Greek debt in unsustainable.

That all seems like a very principled, open position from the IMF, but I wonder how happy some of the poor countries that finance the IMF be will that the bosses have told the Greeks (and the EU) that there is really no point paying us back.
I follow your logic up to that last sentence, Matthew, then you lost me.

Surely Greece will continue to pay all its creditors something unless it actually defaults.

The head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde (a politically correct appointment if ever there was one - designed to expunge any memory of Strauss-Khan), is just not interested in continuing the IMF's customary protection racket when it comes to a wayward member of her cherished EU family.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:55 pm

Things are looking up.

The dreaded repayment date of 20th July seems have passed without incident.

Greek banks have reopened for business even though it may be somewhat limited.

IMF boss Christine Lagarde is reported to be "thrilled" at the appointment of a new chief economist - the old one is retiring.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:27 pm

John McKenna wrote:Things are looking up.
Greece is hanging upside-down with its throat cut, as a warning to any other Mediterranean democracies which might have the temerity to elect a government which Berlin finds unacceptable.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Mike Truran
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Mike Truran » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:25 pm

......or maybe the temerity not to repay the 200+ billion Euros it borrowed and frittered away and think nobody's going to notice? :roll:

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:33 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
John McKenna wrote:Things are looking up.
Greece is hanging upside-down with its throat cut, as a warning to any other Mediterranean democracies which might have the temerity to elect a government which Berlin finds unacceptable.
A sobering post, Nick, worse than looking at Benito Mussolini hanging from a lamppost.
Mike Truran wrote:......or maybe the temerity not to repay the 200+ billion Euros it borrowed and frittered away and think nobody's going to notice? :roll:
That has Germanic echoes and undertones, Mike.

By the way, the name of the new man at the IMF is Maurice Obstfeld, but don't panic...

He's a tame Americanized economist having completed his Ph. D. at MIT in 1979 "under the watchful eye of Rudiger Dornbusch, whose other doctoral students included Grandmaster Ken Rogoff and Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman."

That's reassuring, isn't it?
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:37 am

Here's a link to a thoughful article currently getting huge exposure in the wider world.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... er-2015-07

Before the forum's moderators reflexively remove this as a racist anti-German rant, please bear in mind that the author was for seven years Germany's Foreign Minister.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

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