Greece debt crisis

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NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:26 pm

David Robertson wrote:
NickFaulks wrote:I regard Wolfgang Schauble as Heinrich Himmler without the redeeming features
Now that's a terrible thing to say. If you'd read Peter Longerich's biography of Himmler, as I did last year, you would never make such an odious and intemperate comparison. Whatever Wolfgang Schauble may be, or has done, he is not remotely to be compared with Himmler
We can agree about Himmler, evidently not about Schauble.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

David Pardoe
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by David Pardoe » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:41 pm

Well, Greece has apparently voted `NO`...to a deal that has actually lapsed, I believe, technically speaking.
But, I seem to remember Heir Merkel and co saying that discussions were `off` til after the vote.
So, first we need confirmation of the vote result....for what that is worth.
Its a vote for the Greek regime, if the `NO` wins... ie, these guys are on a `last chance` from the Greek people to demonstrate competence and an ability to find some solid answers.. pretty quickly.
There is now a clear duty of the EU to get back round the table to see if something can be thrashed out. Compromises are called for, but I cant see Greece getting off without taking a lot of pain if it is to remain part of the Eurozone..
Hopefully all these armies of officials can put heads together to find a solution, or at least something approaching a smooth exit..
Meanwhile, no doubt market jitters will kick in tomorrow, and Mr Peston will be pulling no punches on the beeb..
Both sides will need to be seen to be acting sensibly, lest this EU experiment could unravel....or confidence badly damaged.
Some longer term structures need to be put in place if the EU is to preserve a stable framework..
BRING BACK THE BCF

NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:47 pm

The result's in, a big win for the good guys. That doesn't happen much nowadays, start of a trend? I've had a sick feeling all week that if it was remotely close the black hats would fix something, but it wasn't. The Germans must be furious, I hope that Tsipras has doubled his bodyguard. We shall see what they can come up with tomorrow, but they are now very much in the public eye. Go Greece!
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Angus French
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Angus French » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:00 am

I support the "no" vote on economic and compassionate grounds. Under the austerity imposed (agreed?) in 2010, the Greeks have suffered hugely.

I'm somewhat concerned about EMU as it doesn't seem to make economic sense. What would happen if it were to fail?

NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:01 am

David Sedgwick wrote: I also find it distasteful to describe the EU leaders as terrorists, but that is a description of them made by the Greek government.
Yes, it's distasteful, but it's true. Are we supposed to look the other way?.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

NickFaulks
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:08 am

Angus French wrote: I'm somewhat concerned about EMU as it doesn't seem to make economic sense. What would happen if it were to fail?
A lot of hedge funds will lose a lot of money, which is what really matters nowadays.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:12 am

There's an emergency summit of Eurozone leaders on Tuesday.

If they agree that the only way now is in the direction of Grexit then I hope they help make it as painless as possible - match abandoned. If not then they'll have to negotiate a more reasonable agreement with Tsipras's government - Greece 1-0 Germany at HT.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Mick Norris
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:58 am

The Greek Finance Minister has resigned
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Mick Norris
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:35 am

Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Sedgwick
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:22 am

David Sedgwick wrote:I also find it distasteful to describe the EU leaders as terrorists, but that is a description of them made by the Greek government.
NickFaulks wrote:Yes, it's distasteful, but it's true. Are we supposed to look the other way?
Mick Norris wrote:The Greek Finance Minister has resigned
I should not have attributed the "terrorism" description to the Greek government as a whole. The man who made that comment, Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, has resigned at the behest of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras.

As for Nick Faulks, he has demonstrated that he is not the right person to challenge Kirsan Ilyumzhinov in 2018.

Brian Towers
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Brian Towers » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:22 am

David Pardoe wrote:Its a vote for the Greek regime, if the `NO` wins... ie, these guys are on a `last chance` from the Greek people to demonstrate competence and an ability to find some solid answers.. pretty quickly.
I think you've misunderstood the basis on which the Greek people elected their current government and the resounding endorsement they have just given them. The party has a name which looks like it came out of the high scoring word section of a Scrabble dictionary but what it really is is the "having your cake and eating it too" party. Solid answers are very much not wanted. The Greek government, based on yesterday's results, has done a sterling job so far and the only competence required is continuing slipperiness rather than anything vaguely economical. This is a game of high stakes bluff in which the Greeks have the whip hand simply because they are completely and utterly broke. Or rather the vast majority have already emptied their bank accounts and stuffed their mattresses.
David Pardoe wrote:There is now a clear duty of the EU to get back round the table to see if something can be thrashed out. Compromises are called for, but I cant see Greece getting off without taking a lot of pain if it is to remain part of the Eurozone.
I think you mean the Eurozone. Don't include the Brits in that. One thing we have Gordon Brown to thank for.

And there's the rub. The European Central Bank has a responsibility to maintain stability throughout the Eurozone. The federalists have an overwhelming urge to maintain integrity of the whole ramshackle structure. The Greeks are basically playing the role of the naughty child who knows that the PC police are watching his distressed parents to make sure they don't give in and give him the slapping he so richly deserves.

There is a wonderful scene in the Blazing Saddles where the black sheriff, vastly outnumbered by the heavily armed bad guys, pulls out his gun, points it at his own head and says something like "Back off or the n*gg*r gets it". That basically is the strategy of the Greek government.

Greece is not going to come out of the Eurozone of its own free will.
Greece is not going to undertake a genuine austerity program although I'm sure it is perfectly willing to make more empty promises.
David Pardoe wrote:Meanwhile, no doubt market jitters will kick in tomorrow
No real sign as yet. Understandable since the Greek economy is trifling and the debt has mostly been transferred from banks to Eurozone institutions and the Eurozone already has a program of quantative easing in place.

Of course the markets should have serious jitters at the moment but for the serious problems in China (the world's 2nd largest economy) reflected in the 30% drop in the their stockmarket in the last 2 or 3 months and the lack of control the Chinese government has over Chinese speculators rather than the Greek tragicomedy which has grabbed all the headlines.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Brian Towers
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Brian Towers » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:47 am

NickFaulks wrote:I regard Wolfgang Schauble as Heinrich Himmler without the redeeming features
I'm puzzled and sorry I missed all the excitement. Just a few cryptic comments left from what must have been some heavy moderating.

The obvious comparison between some of the modern actors in this farce and the Nazi period is one the Greeks spotted very early and have been exploiting ever since, namely the similarity between the Troika and Goebbels. For, like Goebbels as featured in that old music hall song, they have no balls at all.

My money, for the moment, is on the Greeks staying in the Euro, the Troika continuing to bail them out, with the Greeks offering the sop of yet more promises they have no intention of keeping.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

John McKenna
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by John McKenna » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:58 am

Mike Truran wrote:
I am shocked to hear that the Greeks are such Trojans
Indeed. I'm sure that nobody wants to see the plot of the 'Iliad' rewritten 3,000 or so years on.
Too late, this modern Iliad is already being played out - Tsipras as Achilles and Merkel as Agamemnon.

Tsipras should guard his heel and Merkel should remember "Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes"
Mick Norris wrote:The Greek Finance Minister has resigned
After this will Varoufakis become a latter day Odysseus sentenced to wander the world for 10 years?
Last edited by John McKenna on Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

David Pardoe
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by David Pardoe » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:05 pm

Fair points Brian...theres definitely no easy answer.
The EU have demonstrated a failure to put down `stops` against a Greek regimes that have tried to treat the Eurozone like some kind of charity shop.
In fact I have a big concern that many countries who have joined may see the EU as an easy number, from which they can get `credit` for a binge spend...
There might even be an argument that some redistribution of wealth is no bad thing....
I see a need for a `pause` to the economic power house approach that the `west` seems to take..
A period when debts are run down, and the spotlight is focused on `sustainability` rather than the current `growth` obsession would be no bad thing, although the markets might not like that idea..
Japan has gone through a 20 year pause in its growth....
Middle East tensions look set to dominate proceedings for some time... the EU is on `hold` I believe, and Russia is in a tricky spot..
The US debt situation could spark some reactions, if the manipulators at FED HQ aren't very careful.
Markets will again be in `check` when the interest rates start to creep back up...
As you say, the Greece situation will take some time to resolve, but the Greek people will still need to take further pain if they are to stay in the Eurozone, and other options don't look good. The Greek Gov are going to have to bat cleverly to avoid a backlash, and I see this playing out for some while yet.
The Eurocrats also need to play smart, if indeed there is a way out of this that avoids a crash.. Yes, the Euroland could unravel if things break down much further, but I`m hopeful some solution can be found to keep Greece afloat...maybe involving some kind of long term, low coupon Bond scheme that might run for years to provide support. But this would need some Eurozone restructures to recognise the two speed nature of the economies..
BRING BACK THE BCF

Mike Truran
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Re: Greece debt crisis

Post by Mike Truran » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:07 pm

dona ferentes
Not sure what gifts the Greeks have been bearing recently. Seems more a case of receiving rather than giving gifts. :lol:

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