EU Referendum - in or out?

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John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 27, 2016 1:01 am

Michael, this is not the English Lang. thread - where I allowed your "yence" to pass without censure. My post was made under duress at a time when you were probably comatose. Cut me some slack, please.
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Michael Farthing
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri May 27, 2016 8:09 am

Yeah, OK. I've gone a bit OTT. Sorry. All in good fun.

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 27, 2016 10:55 am

Apology grudgingly accepted.

Since you're here you could try to make more of a contribution to this thread than pedantically pointing out a superfluous apostrophe.

It's much more difficult to make one here than in the "British Championship 2017" class-war thread where your pleb offensive against Mike T's patrician stance is following traditional divisions.

In the real world this debate has the paladin of patricians, George Osborne, in agreement with tribune of the plebs, Len McCluskey, according to Angela Eagle - our darling bud of Argentina's National Day, May 25th - at PMQs on Wednesday.

Are you for 'IN' or 'OUT' or are you betwixt?

[Please feel free to point out any errors in the English I've written,all in the spirit of good fun, above.]
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Brian Towers
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Brian Towers » Fri May 27, 2016 11:22 am

John McKenna wrote: In the real world this debate has the paladin of patricians, George Osborne, in agreement with tribune of the plebs, Len McCluskey, according to Angela Eagle - our darling bud of Argentina's National Day, May 25th - at PMQs on Wednesday.

Are you for 'IN' or 'OUT' or are you betwixt?
In the run up to the 1975 referendum Tony Benn rather presciently said all that needs to be said - http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/ ... mon-market.

The rest is all scaremongering guff, by both sides.

TLDR:
Tony Benn in 1975 wrote:In short, the power of the electors of Britain, through their direct representatives in Parliament to make laws, levy taxes, change laws which the courts must uphold, and control the conduct of public affairs has• been substantially ceded to the European Community whose Council of Ministers and Commission are neither collectively elected, nor collectively dismissed by the British people nor even by the peoples a all the Community countries put together.

These five rights have protected us in Britain from the worst abuse of power by ; government; safeguarded us against the excesses of bureaucracy; defended our . basic liberties; offered us the prospect of peaceful change; reduced the risk of civil strife; and bound us together by creating a national framework of consent for all the laws under which we were governed. We have promised a ballot box decision because all these rights are important, and none should be abandoned without the explicit consent of the people.

lam, of course, not here addressing myself to the general political or economic arguments for or against entry, nor commenting on the view that the advantages of membership might outweigh the loss of democratic rights that I have described. But no one who votes in the ballot box should be in any doubt as to the effect British membership has had, and will increasingly continue to have, in removing the power the British people once enjoyed to govern themselves.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Gerry_Jepps
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Gerry_Jepps » Fri May 27, 2016 1:43 pm

Brian,

Tony Benn often spoke good sense, but in the passage you quoted he overlooks several important facts.

Firstly, in Britain we effectively have an elective dictatorship. Once a Government is elected, provided it has a working majority, it can effectively do what it likes. there are actually more checks and balances in the EU.
Secondly the Commission is akin to our Civil Service, which is not elected, and neither should it be. The Commission can draft laws but it cannot pass them.
Thirdly, for a Commission proposal to become law it requires the assent of both the democratically elected European Parliament and the Council of Ministers. (Benn doesn't even mention the EU Parliament.)
Fourthly, UK representatives in the Council of Ministers are appointed by the PM (like Cabinet Ministers) and answerable to him and hence to the electorate who can boot them both out.

The workings of the European 'Government' is a bit like the power-sharing arrangements in Northern Ireland in that nothing can get done without extensive consultation and agreement between the different parties involved. The form of democracy is different from the UK, but not necessarily worse. Both democracies are of course capable of improvement - just look at the unelected House of Lords for goodness sake.

Brendan O'Gorman
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Brendan O'Gorman » Fri May 27, 2016 1:58 pm

Gerry, I strongly disagree on one point. The EU Commission is very different from the British Civil Service. It develops and proposes its own policy changes. The EU Parliament and the Council of Ministers have to approve these proposals, of course, but the Commission is expert in exploiting the political pressures within the EU to win support for what they put forward, e.g. proposing something which some countries don't want at times when it would be politically embarrassing to oppose it in public. I'm for staying in but the main EU reform I'd like to see would be the neutering of the Commission as a proponent of change and a strengthening of their role in overseeing the use of the vast sums they dole out.

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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 27, 2016 3:17 pm

Good debate, above, from which I'll only comment on a couple of the points raised -
Thirdly, for a Commission proposal to become law it requires the assent of both the democratically elected European Parliament and the Council of Ministers. (Benn doesn't even mention the EU Parliament.)
The European Parliament was still in its infancy when Tony Benn wrote in 1975.

(Direct elections to the European Parliament, which began as the Common Assembly in 1952, did not start until 1979.)

Small wonder he 'overlooked' it.

Even today it is still only in its adolescence and some say it will always remain the junior partner in its relationship with the Council and Commission.
The EU Parliament and the Council of Ministers have to approve these proposals, of course, but the Commission is expert in exploiting the political pressures within the EU to win...
It all sounds suspiciously as if what has been created is a hierarchy with a Council of Czars and a Parliament (Duma) of Mensheviks backed by a Commission of Soviet-style political Commissars.

A recipe for tyranny if ever I heard one - even if it may seem like an almost benign one, at times.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Mon May 30, 2016 12:56 pm

I've been moved to post this by comments about "project fear" in the "e2e4 Gatwick Congress - 27 - 30 May 2016" thread.
Vote Leave is handing victory to Project Fear

Last week the fog of "Project Fear" rolled out thicker than ever...

Some of us have long tried to point out that the one vital thing to winning this battle was a properly worked-out exit plan...

The one way to achieve this (the neutering of "Project Fear") would be for Britain to join the European Economic Area (EEA).

Rich Norway is as fully part of that... But of the 19,532 laws shown on the EU website as currently in force, it has only to obey 5,046 (26 per cent) of them.

And, as an independent nation, Norway, has in fact more influence on shaping those rules than we do...

The unique advantage of the "Norway option" is that it could provide an-off-the-shelf means to neutralise all of "Project Fear's" catalogue of horrors...

This would leave Mr Cameron with nothing to say...

Vote Leave rejected this exit plan because joining the EEA would mean accepting the EU's freedom of movement rules (which could at least be tightened up later)... (Christopher Booker, The Sunday Telegraph, 29th May 2016)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Michael Farthing
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Michael Farthing » Mon May 30, 2016 3:27 pm

John McKenna wrote:Apology grudgingly accepted.

Since you're here you could try to make more of a contribution to this thread than pedantically pointing out a superfluous apostrophe

Are you for 'IN' or 'OUT' or are you betwixt?
Hmm. Well I suppose I am in duty bound to contribute at least two letters - so "in".
But it's so mind bogglingly boring. (In fairness this thread is at least slightly more interesting than the national campaign).

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Mon May 30, 2016 7:39 pm

Michael, I'd say that your reply was both necessary and sufficient, thank you. John :D
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 30, 2016 7:55 pm

My views haven't changed from 'in' either. The debate has been, not boring, but not quite reaching the levels I had hoped it would. Hopefully it may get better with the televised debates. Though I don't actually know when those are...

OK, they are:

Cameron and Farage Live: the EU Referendum, London, ITV One, 7 June, hosted by Robert Peston
The ITV Referendum Debate, London, ITV One, 9 June (includes Boris Johnson)
Question Time EU Referendum Special with Michael Gove, Nottingham, BBC One, 15 June
Question Time EU Referendum Special with David Cameron, Milton Keynes, BBC One, 19 June
EU Referendum: The Great Debate, Wembley Arena, BBC One, 21 June
Europe: The Final Debate with Jeremy Paxman, Channel 4, 22 June

Is anyone planning to watch all those?

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Mon May 30, 2016 8:36 pm

Only gluttons for polemical punishment, Chris.

(Congrats on your recent chess performance in a far-flung foreign field, which might some day even be encompassed by the EU, too, by the way)
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 30, 2016 9:01 pm

John McKenna wrote:a far-flung foreign field, which might some day even be encompassed by the EU, too, by the way
About as likely as Azerbaijan. Armenia pivots towards Russia and Azerbaijan towards Turkey. Quite how the EU handles the continuing questions over any further expansion may be critical to future relations between the EU and other economic unions formed by Russia and in Asia. The UK, being over on the other side of the EU and having an ocean to our west rather than the landmass of Asia, the question doesn't always seem that vital. IMO, the focus should be on the Balkan countries. Get that sorted first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_en ... pean_Union

But international diplomacy moves in slow and strange circles sometimes.

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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Mick Norris » Mon May 30, 2016 9:02 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:My views haven't changed from 'in' either. The debate has been, not boring, but not quite reaching the levels I had hoped it would. Hopefully it may get better with the televised debates. Though I don't actually know when those are...

OK, they are:

Cameron and Farage Live: the EU Referendum, London, ITV One, 7 June, hosted by Robert Peston
The ITV Referendum Debate, London, ITV One, 9 June (includes Boris Johnson)
Question Time EU Referendum Special with Michael Gove, Nottingham, BBC One, 15 June
Question Time EU Referendum Special with David Cameron, Milton Keynes, BBC One, 19 June
EU Referendum: The Great Debate, Wembley Arena, BBC One, 21 June
Europe: The Final Debate with Jeremy Paxman, Channel 4, 22 June

Is anyone planning to watch all those?
No, I have already voted :)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon May 30, 2016 9:11 pm

The more I think about it, the question of Turkey becoming part of the EU seems critical. If Turkey starts to buckle under the strain it is under from the wars on its borders (arguably it already is showing the strain), do you close the door completely (not really possible as they are a member of NATO) or do you increase the support to prevent things getting worse? I think withdrawing from any supranational body in the current geopolitical climate is a backward step. Countries both individually and together need to step up and stand firm and work to resolve problems, rather than backing away from them. The same applies to Jordan as well.

(Hah, postal voting, Mick?)

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