EU Referendum - in or out?

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NickFaulks
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:25 pm

TLSA love letter to the British people, from Europe wrote:All of us in Europe respect the right of the British people to decide whether they wish to remain with us in the European Union. It is your decision, and we will all accept it. Nevertheless, if it will help the undecided to make up their minds, we would like to express how very much we value having the United Kingdom in the European Union. It is not just treaties that join us to your country, but bonds of admiration and affection. All of us hope that you will vote to renew them. Britain, please stay.
Pass the sick bag.
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Alistair Campbell
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Alistair Campbell » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:44 pm

Peter D Williams wrote:Afternoon friends :wink:

I will be voting no in the Referendum with a pen so no civil sevant can rub it out and then put a yes vote.
Surely MI5 can get round this quite easily by just removing your vote and replacing it with several "Remain" votes prior to the count? :evil:

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:42 pm

Non-UK electors are accidentally given postal votes (City A.M. today, p. 7)
(Unconfirmed reports say a Time Lord visiting Manchester could be among them.)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Angus French
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Angus French » Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:40 pm

Alistair Campbell wrote:
Peter D Williams wrote:Afternoon friends :wink:

I will be voting no in the Referendum with a pen so no civil sevant can rub it out and then put a yes vote.
Surely MI5 can get round this quite easily by just removing your vote and replacing it with several "Remain" votes prior to the count? :evil:
Maybe Peter can outfox M15 by voting to "Yes" ;)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:15 pm

Depressing article on the EU referendum and how apathy may determine the outcome:

Is Labour in danger of losing EU Remain vote? (BBC News)

I still think Remain will win, but it is proving to be a very damaging debate. Hopefully the tone will improve and the turnout will be high and the result decisive. In both the Scottish independence vote and this one, the politicians seems to have been caught on the hop, only realising late on that they need to get their act together and campaign properly.

Turnout was 84.6% for the Scottish independence referendum.
Wonder what the turnout will be for this referendum?

NickFaulks
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:30 pm

Surely that is the opposite of what the article says. The central point is

"MP after MP has returned to Westminster with depressing tales from their home turf; of door-knocking in staunchly Labour areas where apathy towards the EU question has given way to rank hostility."

edit : I was commenting on only the first two lines of the post. Apathy is not the problem.
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NickFaulks
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:38 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: Wonder what the turnout will be for this referendum?
The bookies have a central range of 65-70%.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:38 pm

Ah, OK. Apathy replaced by hostility. But still, are they saying that people are hostile towards Europe, or hostile towards the Tory infighting?

"Often, according to another shadow minister, the antipathy to the EU has little or nothing to do with Europe. "People just want to kick the establishment," he said."

It seems more like the Leave side is being bolstered by an anti-establishment flavour to the voting.

"But among Labour MPs representing areas which will be crucial to the outcome of the referendum, the nagging fear is starting to take hold that it may already be too late."

That was the depressing bit.

(Thanks for the bookies range on the expected turnout.)

NickFaulks
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:54 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: It seems more like the Leave side is being bolstered by an anti-establishment flavour to the voting.
Absolutely it is. If today's EU is not the very definition of the establishment elite, I don't know what is. I suspect that every foreign banker wheeled out to state solemnly that we must under no circumstances be allowed to leave the EU is worth another ten thousand votes for Brexit.

To paraphrase Groucho Marx, "who you gonna believe, Mark Carney or your own eyes?".
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:43 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Cameron and Farage Live: the EU Referendum, London, ITV One, 7 June, hosted by Robert Peston
The ITV Referendum Debate, London, ITV One, 9 June (includes Boris Johnson)
Question Time EU Referendum Special with Michael Gove, Nottingham, BBC One, 15 June
Question Time EU Referendum Special with David Cameron, Milton Keynes, BBC One, 19 June
EU Referendum: The Great Debate, Wembley Arena, BBC One, 21 June
Europe: The Final Debate with Jeremy Paxman, Channel 4, 22 June

Is anyone planning to watch all those?
The first of these debates took place yesterday evening. Except it wasn't a debate, they appeared sequentially:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36471787

Did anyone watch the programme?

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:55 pm

I certainly didn't, and nothing either of those two politicoes could say would sway me from my convictions.

Far-rage should have instructed all UKIP MEPs to not take up their seats in the EU Parliament. Instead they try to wreck the EU from the inside.

In Ca-moron's case he also wants to sabotage the EU from the inside hence the imperative to remain.

The EU will be better off without the UK politically BUT they don't want to take the economic and fiscal hit the UK leaving will entail for them.

They like us as customers and love our money. That's why so many Euro persons are here beavering away.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:55 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
TLSA love letter to the British people, from Europe wrote:All of us in Europe respect the right of the British people to decide whether they wish to remain with us in the European Union. It is your decision, and we will all accept it. Nevertheless, if it will help the undecided to make up their minds, we would like to express how very much we value having the United Kingdom in the European Union. It is not just treaties that join us to your country, but bonds of admiration and affection. All of us hope that you will vote to renew them. Britain, please stay.
Pass the sick bag.
That wasn't very inspiring, was it?

Might this be more inspiring?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opi ... -1-7961915

The Archbishop of York, John Sentamu: When it comes to Europe, I suggest to you that “united we stand”.
John Locke wrote: ​The only way by which any one divests himself of his natural liberty and puts on ​​the bonds of civil society is by agreeing with other men to join and unite into a ​​community.
John Donne wrote:No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of ​the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a ​​promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were; any ​​man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never ​send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Or is reaching back to the 16th and 17th centuries overdoing it a bit? (I wonder what some past historic personages would have made of this debate? Europe was a very different concept back then.)

Some light (black?) humour:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opi ... -1-7958669

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:37 pm

Starting to think that the consolation of a Brexit vote is that it will finally expose BJ and Gove for the clueless chancers that they are.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:49 pm

Or is reaching back to the 16th and 17th centuries overdoing it a bit? (I wonder what some past historic personages would have made of this debate? Europe was a very different concept back then.)
I don't think things have changed much, scratch below the surface and you'll find similar networks in operation.

Perhaps Chris, and Archbishop Sentamu, could benefit from (re)reading Othello.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

NickFaulks
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:07 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:Starting to think that the consolation of a Brexit vote is that it will finally expose BJ and Gove for the clueless chancers that they are.
Works for me.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

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