EU Referendum - in or out?

A section to discuss matters not related to Chess in particular.
John McKenna
Posts: 4202
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 13, 2016 12:16 pm

Mark Carney (BoE) & Christine Lagarde (IMF) are mouthpieces for the "IN" campaign -

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/imf ... ocid=wispr

Canuk Carney was appointed by the UK government and Frog Princess Lagarde is an ex-finance minister of Europhilia (aka France).

These two, and others like them, are officers of government and international institutions. They are entitled to a private opinion on Brexit (that they should keep to themselves or just share with family and friends) but should keep their big traps shut about it if speaking in an official capacity!

Please remember that it was David Cameron - the leader of the Conservative & Unionist Party - who decided to impose this EU referendum on the UK because of pressures within his own party. The way things are you'd think that he, and his remaining mates on the Tory front bench, had nothing to do with that. IT'S THEIR FAULT THIS IS HAPPENING!!

I agree with Nick, above, that if the Celtic mane and tail wag the nag and keep the UK in the EU despite a vote by the English to quit then we have a constitutional crisis - precipitated by the current UK government and that's quite sufficient for them to have to resign without the need for a no-confidence vote in the Commons, and call a General Election.

If that happens, hopefully, English voters will express their lack of confidence in the omni-shambolic, push-me-pull-you Conservative & Unionist Party. (The clue to this deception of democracy is in the name of the perpetrators.)
Attachments
push-me-pull-you.jpg
push-me-pull-you.jpg (13.78 KiB) Viewed 474 times
Last edited by John McKenna on Fri May 13, 2016 2:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

User avatar
Paolo Casaschi
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:46 am

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri May 13, 2016 12:18 pm

NickFaulks wrote:An outcome which interests me is that England votes to leave, but we can't because of an overwhelming vote from Scotland to stay in. I think there would be calls for an English referendum on independence from Scotland - that's not a joke.
Would then Scotland require England to leave the British pound and get their own currency? This is a joke.

John McKenna
Posts: 4202
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 13, 2016 12:29 pm

Good joke, Paolo, England can return to the 'groat' if it happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groat_(coin)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

NickFaulks
Posts: 5943
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Fri May 13, 2016 12:55 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: Would then Scotland require England to leave the British pound and get their own currency? This is a joke.
Your view that all human aspirations must be subservient to the needs of the banking system is of course widely expressed nowadays. In historical terms it is quite a recent development and I think it will pass.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 3414
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri May 13, 2016 1:05 pm

NickFaulks wrote:An outcome which interests me is that England votes to leave, but we can't because of an overwhelming vote from Scotland to stay in. I think there would be calls for an English referendum on independence from Scotland - that's not a joke.
People forget how much bigger England is (population wise) than Scotland.

However overwhelmingly Scotland voted to stay in, it could not affect the result unless the balance in England was very close.

England voting by a big margin to leave the EU and being thwarted in that aspiration by the other areas of the UK is not a realistic scenario.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

John McKenna
Posts: 4202
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 13, 2016 1:18 pm

Matt, doesn't your premise rest somewhat on turnout?

What if there's a low turnout in England and high ones in Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland?

The 'scenario' may not be likely but it cannot be discounted.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

User avatar
Paolo Casaschi
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:46 am

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri May 13, 2016 1:25 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote: Would then Scotland require England to leave the British pound and get their own currency? This is a joke.
Your view that all human aspirations must be subservient to the needs of the banking system is of course widely expressed nowadays. In historical terms it is quite a recent development and I think it will pass.
I just found hilarious how the same arguments discussed during the Scottish referendum would suddenly completely reverse. The currency is just the easiest joke, but it would apply to most of the arguments, except of course the EU membership. Nothing more than a joke.

However, since you address the big issues of "all human aspirations", don't you find a bit sad that recently all British aspirations seem to be about nothing else than leaving and going away from something? First Scotland leaving Great Britain, now Great Britain leaving the EU, then maybe England leaving Great Britain? Hopefully this will pass as well and something more constructive will come around.

In any case, for full disclosure, I'm not really concerned about the big scheme of things, I'm mainly worried about the gigantic pile of paperwork the home office will have ready on June 24th in order for me to continue being a welcome guest of this country.

NickFaulks
Posts: 5943
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Fri May 13, 2016 2:08 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: I just found hilarious how the same arguments discussed during the Scottish referendum would suddenly completely reverse.
They were facile then and they are facile now.
However, since you address the big issues of "all human aspirations", don't you find a bit sad that recently all British aspirations seem to be about nothing else than leaving and going away from something?
Absolutely not. As political units get larger, democracy withers and dies. Do you see the faintest vestige of democracy in today's EU? Smaller is better, but that doesn't mean that the units can't work together.
In any case, for full disclosure, I'm not really concerned about the big scheme of things, I'm mainly worried about the gigantic pile of paperwork the home office will have ready on June 24th in order for me to continue being a welcome guest of this country.
That's fair enough. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, because I have no doubt that your presence in the UK is a good thing for all of us, I do not understand why you should be made welcome when a similarly qualified Australian is kept out. I just don't get it.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

User avatar
Paolo Casaschi
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:46 am

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri May 13, 2016 2:24 pm

NickFaulks wrote:That's fair enough. However, and please don't take this the wrong way, because I have no doubt that your presence in the UK is a good thing for all of us, I do not understand why you should be made welcome when a similarly qualified Australian is kept out. I just don't get it.
I get your point, but assuming you need to draw a line somewhere (and it's already a big assumption) it's completely arbitrary to decide where you draw that line. If you fundamentally think that free movement of people is a good thing in principle, then you make it work and eventually you might as well include Australians also. If you do not think that and you want to reinforce walls and boundaries, then where to draw the line is completely arbitrary. As a Londoner, I sometimes think the area within the M25 (+heatrow) is different enough from the rest of the UK than it could be easily and effectively made its own country: commuting to the countryside is already a nightmare and passport controls would only add a small percentage to the commuting time.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 9085
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri May 13, 2016 2:48 pm

NickFaulks wrote:An outcome which interests me is that England votes to leave, but we can't because of an overwhelming vote from Scotland to stay in. I think there would be calls for an English referendum on independence from Scotland - that's not a joke.
There's a slightly different interesting scenario on this theme. The United Kingdom decides to leave, but can't because of an overwhelming vote from Gibraltar to stay in.

I think the most likely outcome is that England will vote to Leave, but the votes of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will tip the balance in Remain's favour.

User avatar
Paolo Casaschi
Posts: 1095
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:46 am

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri May 13, 2016 3:00 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: think the most likely outcome is that England will vote to Leave, but the votes of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will tip the balance in Remain's favour.
Adding to that, within England you might have a high concentration of "remain" votes in London making the "leave" majority in the rest of England even more apparent.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 7524
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri May 13, 2016 3:16 pm

Is anyone here sufficiently engaged/concerned about this to be actively campaigning or volunteering to help with campaigning for either side? It is something I (maybe) feel strongly enough about to actually (for the first time in my life) campaign on a political issue, rather than just talk about it. I do get the impression that people are talking about it more as they realise what it might mean.

(Surely Gibraltar's population is too small to have any effect?)

From the 2011 census (with some roundings):

England - 53 million
Scotland - 5.3 million
Wales - 3 million
Northern Ireland - 1.8 million

TOTAL: 63.2 million

London (2104) is between 8.5 and 13.8 million. Not sure what figure is used politically.
Gibraltar's population (2015 estimate) is 32,194.

John McKenna
Posts: 4202
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 13, 2016 4:31 pm

Just Alex H having a little joke, Chris.

The funny thing to me is that in a parallel but opposite way to Phil N (see further above) - who said if England leaves the EU he'd seek refuge in an independent Scotland - I am beginning to wonder if I'd feel more comfortable in Dublin than in London if the UK votes to stay in the EU. (I also think that in Eire I'd find a bit more commitment to the "European Project" than in England and that would make me feel better, too. Because, to me, there's nothing worse than being half-hearted about something that big and important.)

However, I haven't returned to Dublin since I was there in 1990 and I fear that since then it may have turned into a mini-London-on-Liffey. I don't want to go from a big halfway house to another smaller one, and London-on-Thames is half full of metics and exotic slaves already.

http://openborders.info/blog/metics-in-ancient-greece/

Every other person you meet is of every kind of foreign origin. Polish and Russian can be heard as often as Urdu, Hindi or English.
When I was in Tokyo, which is much bigger and fuller than London, a Japanese person commented on that, saying how surprised they were by it on a visit to London. (They assumed that, as in Tokyo, the vast majority would be 'natives', speaking the 'native' lang.)

I replied that the British had been in many countries - such as India & Pakistan, &c. &c. &c... - helping them (and themselves), sometimes for hundreds of years. Therefore their contemporary citizens thought they'd repay the visit and come over to help us build a better Britain, (while also helping themselves in the process). Just as the British had done over there.

I added that our forefathers fought for the independence from totalitarianism of some other countries and their contemporary citizens felt so grateful that wanted to come over here and help us build a better Britain (while also helping themselves...)

And, that there were even citizens of the few other countries that the British had, historically, next to nothing to do with (such as the Philippines) but that they'd heard how wonderful it was over here, with everybody helping each other (and themselves) and decided that they'd come over to help, too.

The paramount principle of successive governments from Elizabeth I's to Elizabeth II's has been, and remains in practice - the more the merrier in Merrie Olde England.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

NickFaulks
Posts: 5943
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Fri May 13, 2016 4:45 pm

I'm not sure whether John and I agree about everything, but we seem to sing from the same hymnsheet. Amen to that post.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Jonathan Rogers
Posts: 4102
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:26 pm

Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Fri May 13, 2016 5:04 pm

Kasparov on Brexit

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... r-putin-eu

pointing out that the main worldwide political supporters of Brexit are Trump, Johnson, and Putin, just the sort of people who have the interests of working English people at heart and who couldn't possibly have underhand motives for supporting the cause. Includes the line

"If you’re not sure of the best course of action, you could do worse than look at what Putin wants and do the opposite."

Post Reply