EU Referendum - in or out?

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David Pardoe
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by David Pardoe » Sun May 15, 2016 6:01 pm

As regards this thread... IN or OUT..
I`d opt for a third option... ie, Shake it all about..
Because the EU model just simply doesn't stack up..
The Euro is unsustainable... they need at least some kind of `two tier` version..
The European Super state concept is a total non sense in my view..
There are far too much culture clashes and diversity to stick this lot all under the same label.
The big issues like MIGRATION are a nightmare... the UK SIMPLY CANT TAKE UNLIMITED numbers of people..
And another issue goes back to the nature of the group... many countries are living at a totally different level, and I fear they have joined the Eurozone as a way of grabbing benefits and financial support, from the supposedly richer states, thereby potentially risking dragging down otherwise fairly sound economies.
Greece illustrates these problems very clearly..
Yes, I`m all in favour of lending assistance to struggling nations, but not being swamped by there debt problems.
For me, the EU should be a group who are simply sharing a market for trading purposes..
BRING BACK THE BCF

Brian Towers
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Brian Towers » Sun May 15, 2016 10:16 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
NickFaulks wrote:Why do you think it is that in a recent MORI poll 48 per cent of Italians said they would like Italy to leave the EU? My guess is that this is at least in part because of folk memory - Italy has experienced rule from Berlin and didn't like it.
I really do not know
Really? Are you serious?

You don't think the EU replacing the democratically elected prime minister, Berlusconi, with their placeman, Mario Monti, in 2011 might have had something to do with it?

I'm guessing you'd be equally puzzled by the EU (along with the German leaders of the EU) unpopularity in Greece.

Democracy is viewed by the EU "elites" as a stumbling block to power and control rather than the acceptable route.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun May 15, 2016 10:44 pm

I'm in a relationship with a Swede, my sister is married to a Pole, and my cousin is married to a Finn. Take a wild guess as to which way I'll be voting. :D

Brian Towers
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Brian Towers » Sun May 15, 2016 10:55 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:I'm in a relationship with a Swede, my sister is married to a Pole, and my cousin is married to a Finn. Take a wild guess as to which way I'll be voting. :D
Genuinely no idea!

Something the remainders struggle to grasp is that it is perfectly reasonable to love Europe and Europeans without wanting to be governed by them. Nigel Farage is married to a German, whom he probably loves dearly, but very reasonably has no wish to be governed by Frau Merkel. Bojo is a mongrel who was born in the US but who also wants to be governed by a UK democratically elected parliament.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Sun May 15, 2016 11:25 pm

Guys, I think what we are experiencing here is a generation gap.
As could be expected, the youngsters can see more positives and the oldsters more negatives. Bit of a generalisation that, but probably not far off the mark. Bound to be exceptions, of course.
Please remember we are all players and should stick together tbrough thick and thin in the spirit of friendly rivalry and sportspersonship... (Unless we are discussing the laws of chess, then it's a free-for-all scrum... BUT, please, NO kicking, biting and/or gouging, etc.) :wink:
My thanks to Mick for his comprehensive answer to my question. (He's a gold mine of information - all of it useful and edifying.)
Ps I think before you finally decide, Jack, you should do a straw poll of your nearest and dearest to see if they all agree. And if even one says "leave" then you should abstain.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

NickFaulks
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by NickFaulks » Mon May 16, 2016 7:55 am

Brian Towers wrote: Genuinely no idea!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't follow Jack's logic. Is he saying that if his brother-in-law were Australian instead of Polish he would be voting the other way? There's actually a more coherent case for that.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Mon May 16, 2016 12:14 pm

Brian Towers wrote: ... Bojo is a mongrel who was born in the US but who also wants to be governed by a UK democratically elected parliament.
... provided that he is the Prime Minister in that Parliament, the prospect of which is clearly the reason for his changing - yes, CHANGING - his mind about Brexit of late.

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Mon May 16, 2016 1:10 pm

Jonathan, we all know Boris moves and speaks in mysterious ways and is a law unto himself.

But don't listen only to him. Please read what follows, if/when you've time.

3 letters from the ES (5th May) are given below. (I particularly agree with the views expressed in the first letter. Taken together the 3 letters, sadly, spell "OUT" to me.)

I am fully in favour of a completely integrated European superstate that is financially, politically and culturally one "country". Britain could contribute in an incredibly positive way... as we have experience and influence in working with other nations. We should be at the very heart of the EU...driving it forward for the benefit of all...
Sadly, the UK in the modern era is run and populated by people who lack the vision, intelligence and determination... for the European Project... we need to be outside of it.
It seems we are the killjoys of the EU - the sulking losers sitting on the edge... determined to spoil things for everyone else. (Paul H.)

Even supporters of the EU say it needs reform and it is unacceptable in its current form... Before we even joined the EEC Macmillan talked of changes but did not succeed... Kinnock was unsuccessful... Now Cameron... has not delivered...
The European Parliament and Council of Ministers outvote us... while the European Court of Justice overrules us as and when it can.
As the European Commission President, Jean-Claude Juncker said in Feb. - "There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties."
This shows the situation... We cannot change the laws under which we live, we've no democracy. The EU tells us that we have no choice and resistance is futile. But, outside of it we do have choice. (Will P.)

If the reason people are campaigning for a Brexit is that we want more independence and to link up with nations which enjoy prosperity and more sovereignty, how about Australia the United States and Japan, which is the 3rd largest ecomomy in the world?
It is inconceivabe that any of those three nations would follow us in becoming chained to a failing superstate like the EU, but neither Australia, Japan or the US are led by a political class that has lost confidence in its own country. (Richard M.)
Last edited by John McKenna on Tue May 17, 2016 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Brian Towers
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Brian Towers » Mon May 16, 2016 1:20 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:... provided that he is the Prime Minister in that Parliament, the prospect of which is clearly the reason for his changing - yes, CHANGING - his mind about Brexit of late.
First, we know for a fact (providing "cast iron Dave" was telling the truth) that Cameron will not lead the Tories into the 2020 election, so a vacancy is going to arise very soon in any case.

As to your assumption that the new leader is guaranteed to be Bojo, well, I think you are in a tiny minority on that and not one shared by Bojo himself. I suspect Gove has a better chance. Of course that means that your claim that that was why Bojo changed his mind is also rubbish.

I suspect that, like many people, Bojo hoped that Cameron would get meaningful concessions from the EU which would mean it would be a club worth being a member of and only changed his mind when, yet again, Cameron proved to be Merkel's poodle. I also have a dark suspicion that he is not committed to actually carrying through the act and leaving, despite the fact that unshackling ourselves from the dying corpse is clearly the best option. I think he harbours hopes of renegotiating the terms of UK membership following a "Leave" vote.

As to whether "CHANGING" one's mind on a topic should be in any way permissible, may I leave you with:
John Maynard Keynes wrote:When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

David Pardoe
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by David Pardoe » Mon May 16, 2016 8:13 pm

Here`s another view on one aspect of the EU... from the iii financial forum, re BP bb..
http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/detail/ ... d=11920375
You can follow this thread, and others on this topic.

Migration is but one aspect of this debate.. it might be interesting to start with a bullet point list of the main pro`s and cons...

As I have said, if we could make a positive effort to `shake it all about` this project Euro could possibly be made to function, but only if based more loosely on a trading partnership.
BRING BACK THE BCF

Brian Towers
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Brian Towers » Mon May 16, 2016 9:54 pm

David Pardoe wrote:it might be interesting to start with a bullet point list of the main pro`s and cons...
Paul Mason had a go at doing just that in this morning's Guardian:

First the case in favour of Brexit
Paul Mason wrote:The leftwing case for Brexit is strategic and clear. The EU is not – and cannot become – a democracy. Instead, it provides the most hospitable ecosystem in the developed world for rentier monopoly corporations, tax-dodging elites and organised crime. It has an executive so powerful it could crush the leftwing government of Greece; a legislature so weak that it cannot effectively determine laws or control its own civil service. A judiciary that, in the Laval and Viking judgments, subordinated workers’ right to strike to an employer’s right do business freely.

Its central bank is committed, by treaty, to favour deflation and stagnation over growth. State aid to stricken industries is prohibited. The austerity we deride in Britain as a political choice is, in fact, written into the EU treaty as a non-negotiable obligation. So are the economic principles of the Thatcher era. A Corbyn-led Labour government would have to implement its manifesto in defiance of EU law.

And the situation is getting worse. Europe’s leaders still do not know whether they will let Greece go bankrupt in June; they still have no workable plan to distribute the refugees Germany accepted last summer, and having signed a morally bankrupt deal with Turkey to return the refugees, there is now the prospect of that deal’s collapse. That means, if the reported demand by an unnamed Belgian minister to “push back or sink” migrant boats in the Aegean is activated, the hands of every citizen of the EU will be metaphorically on the tiller of the ship that does it. You may argue that Britain treats migrants just as badly. The difference is that in Britain I can replace the government, whereas in the EU, I cannot.
Then the case in favour of Remain
Paul Mason wrote:Now here’s the practical reason to ignore it. In two words: Boris Johnson.
Apparently if Brexit wins then the devil incarnated in the form of Boris Johnson will inevitably be Prime Minister by Christmas and, in the words of Private Frazer, we'll be doomed! Doomed! I tell ye. Mason spells out the full gory details in his article. You'll have to go and read it for yourself. My stomach isn't strong enough to face the horrors again.

Yes, I know, it sounds a bit thin to me too, but presumably that explains why Jeremy Corbyn has CHANGED (copyright Jonathan Rogers) the beliefs of a lifetime to back Remain.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Wed May 25, 2016 11:40 am

The big issues like MIGRATION are a nightmare... the UK SIMPLY CANT TAKE UNLIMITED numbers of people..


The referendum must be getting to me. Had a dream that I was doing a kitchen table interview with Dave & Sam Cam. I was just asking Dave if he thought that changing the makeup and therefore also the face of Britain by bad/barely-controlled immigration from both the EU (badly controlled) and the rest of the world (barely controlled) was a resignable offence when his and his party's sworn promise was to reduce it to the "tens of thousands"?!
At that moment I noticed his eyes (and mind) had begun to wander. However, Sam (sitting at his side) was staring intently straight at me, and I thought she was about to say something...
when I suddenly awoke and the dream ended.

At least it was an honest straightforward kind of dream and not open to all kinds of interpretations.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Brian Towers
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Brian Towers » Wed May 25, 2016 3:38 pm

John McKenna wrote:At that moment I noticed his eyes (and mind) had begun to wander. However, Sam (sitting at his side) was staring intently straight at me, and I thought she was about to say something...
when I suddenly awoke and the dream ended.

At least it was an honest straightforward kind of dream and not open to all kinds of interpretations.
Yeah, yeah. Tell that to Freud. Sam had the hots for you and Dave didn't care.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

John McKenna
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by John McKenna » Thu May 26, 2016 12:31 am

Brian, I can assure you that my dream was purely political. Sam is not my type, nor me her's. If I could hold forth in Hades at the court of Freud, when he asks me if she was playing footsie under the kitchen table - while distracted Dave thought about what to say at the G7 in Japan this week - I'd have to say no.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Michael Farthing
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Re: EU Referendum - in or out?

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu May 26, 2016 6:54 pm

I can't resist it John. "her's" ?

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