EU referendum aftermath

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Joey Stewart
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Joey Stewart » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:28 pm

I have seen similar articles to this which reason that a lot of people feeling they had nothing to lose. I would be inclined to believe that - 51% of the country did not suddenly go insane, many have been marginalised to the point of desperation and felt that this was better then sinking deeper into a hole.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Mick Norris
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:38 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:They cannot trigger Article 50. The legal argument so far goes that Cameron or the appropriate UK representative turning up and/or requesting negotiations to start in any way, may be seen as a 'notification' and hence an Article 50 starting process. This article talked about the irony that a new pro-Leave Conservative administration may end up appealing a premature EU-'triggered' Article 50 attempt to some European legal body... The irony.
Professor Wyatt said: "If David Cameron attends the European council on Tuesday, he is likely to confirm in discussions with other heads of government that the UK intends to leave the EU.
"He might do this directly in so many words or he might conduct conversations predicated on the UK's departure from the EU, such as suggestions that informal pre-negotiations might take place before Article 50 is formally triggered.
"EU lawyers might advise the council that such confirmation or such conversations are themselves enough to trigger Article 50 and set the clock ticking on the two year period for negotiating a withdrawal agreement."
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NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:45 pm

People around the country have felt for years that, even though they've been told by the experts that they are prospering, their standard of living is actually going down. It was of course the job of the Labour party to respond to this concern, but they have been quite useless. Finally, they seem to have worked out for themselves where their money has gone. London has got it.

PeterFarr
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by PeterFarr » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:46 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:
PeterFarr wrote:
Joey Stewart wrote:I took out Ireland and Scotland on the basis that they are keen to leave the uk so their 'stay' votes would be leaving along with them.
They aren't.
They weren't - Scotland I think may well go this time, and honestly good luck to them. They've started preparing the ground.

I've no idea about the talk of NI joining up with Ireland instead of us, but its there. Might be a chance now I imagine.

London is of course insane, if rather amusing :)
Yes, fair enough.

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:58 pm

Mick Norris wrote: Professor Wyatt said: "If David Cameron attends the European council on Tuesday, he is likely to confirm in discussions with other heads of government that the UK intends to leave the EU.
It worries me greatly that David Cameron has any role in this process. He can easily be bullied into taking some action which will hamstring his successor.

Angus French
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Angus French » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:30 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Alastair Campbell in the International Business Times:

"Many are now saying we all need to pull together and make this work. I am not sure I agree. The country has voted on a totally false prospectus ..."
Alastair Campbell complaining about a false prospectus! Fantastic.

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:49 pm

Angus French wrote: Alastair Campbell complaining about a false prospectus! Fantastic.
I'm sure that Chilcot will clear him of any wrongdoing.

David Pardoe
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by David Pardoe » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:27 pm

People have been completely hoodwinked by the `out ` campaign... and the media circus.
Phases like `take back control` and `control immigration, and `make our own laws.. not be ruled by unelected Brussels beurocrats, etc sound great.. but this leap into the dark, based on a wafer thin majority vote, where nearly 30% didn't vote, is complete madness.
And replacing Cameron with loopy Boris really cant make any sense..
The notion that this vote will lead to us taking control of immigration is rubbish..

Nor the other consequences we`re now looking at.. including a completely divided UK.
Even moves to oust Corbyn... could this lead to Nigel Farage switching to Labour to head up the lefties `out squad`..
The working classes might well be signalling there frustration at the living standards we have..
But they are down to our wonderful bankers and other city jokers, playing with the latest `instruments` and nearly smashing the global markets to pieces in 2008. A problem we will have to live with for years, and to the ludicrous situation where `rich Britain` has even resorted to closing our public toilets to save money..
Yes, its absolutely the case that the EU model is flawed and needs some dramatic reforms.
But this `EXIT` action could be the start of a dramatic fall of the dominoes, and a collapse of the Eurozone..
I`m certainly not liking the look of all this..
BRING BACK THE BCF

Ray Sayers

Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Ray Sayers » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:25 am

This is either amusing or just plain sad: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:52 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Mick Norris wrote: Professor Wyatt said: "If David Cameron attends the European council on Tuesday, he is likely to confirm in discussions with other heads of government that the UK intends to leave the EU.
It worries me greatly that David Cameron has any role in this process. He can easily be bullied into taking some action which will hamstring his successor.
The issue of how to formally trigger Article 50 has been clarified by the EU (in the shape of "a spokesman for the European Council"):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36632579

"It could either be a letter to the president of the European Council or an official statement at a meeting of the European Council duly noted in the official records of the meeting."

In other news, Jeremy Corbyn, showing that there is steel in there, has sacked Hilary Benn. Might not actually help him, but if Benn was briefing against him then that was probably needed. [EDIT: Though now other members of the shadow cabinet are resigning as well... Still won't help if Corbyn gets on the ballot again.]

[As a brief, though not totally unrelated aside, I wonder how much this whole seismic shift is pushing other news off the radar? The centenary commemorations of the Somme battles are due next week and various World War 1 events have and are being commemorated in the period 2014-2018 - the EU came together in part to prevent more European wars, directly WW2, but you can't untangle that from WW1. I wonder sometimes whether the centenary makes some politicians [those less aware of history than others] more or less aware of how things can go wrong when geopolitical forces get out of control?]
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:15 am

Ray Sayers wrote:This is either amusing or just plain sad: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other
Thanks for that. A searing indictment of two journalist politicians by a journalist.

Even a quote from Kipling's Epitaphs of the War 1914-1918:

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_epitaphs.htm

A lot of journalists are turning to the classics and poetry and Shakespeare to either show their erudition or to really try and mark the gravity of the moment (YMMV).

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:11 am

Ray Sayers wrote:This is either amusing or just plain sad: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... SApp_Other
Sour grapes. What they looked was what they were, completely knackered.

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:34 am

Meanwhile, there is still no sign that the Labour party will organise itself to play any serious part in the exit process. This is a great shame, since our democracy relies heavily upon the existence of a functioning opposition.

The BBC shows no signs of moving away from its old stereotypes. Discussing today's election in Spain, they describe the parties hoping finally to evict their disgustingly corrupt government as either "extreme right" or "extreme left". They're mostly neither of those things, just extremely angry. That's what youth unemployment of over 50% does to you.

Nick Burrows
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:59 am

From the guardian comments section:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:07 am

I think the above post tells us more about the Guardian's comments section than about any political reality.

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