EU referendum aftermath

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Alan Walton
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:25 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:What I am saying here is that I suspect more people would vote "no" if the question was put to them, "Do you want Brussels to set your tax rate"
That's for sure, but do you think the answer from the UK population would be any different to the question "do you want London to set your tax rate?"
But at least as a country we vote in the government, unelected beauracratics in the EU is alot less attractive (obviously this could change)

Matthew Turner
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Matthew Turner » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:30 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote: With respect to the actual question of the referendum, I believe many Italians feel that good intentions (reducing the complexity of the law-making process and reducing the size/cost of parliament) were poorly implemented (major source of concern that the senators would be in practice named as opposed to elected as they are today). As such you could either make a case for a no vote on the specifics of the constitutional amendment or you could make a case for a yes vote in the name of political stability in the country.
Paolo,
The proposal for the Senate were
"End elections to Senate and fill it with 21 regional mayors, 74 regional council heads and five other members selected by the president"

Wouldn't the mayors and council heads be elected?

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:42 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:What I am saying here is that I suspect more people would vote "no" if the question was put to them, "Do you want Brussels to set your tax rate"
That's for sure, but do you think the answer from the UK population would be any different to the question "do you want London to set your tax rate?"
But at least as a country we vote in the government, unelected beauracratics in the EU is alot less attractive (obviously this could change)
It does not change the fact many people in the UK would answer no to the question about being managed from London.
Also, not sure where the "unelected beaurocratics" rant came from, but it's so much different between the EU and the UK?
European MPs are elected, same as UK MPs. With respect to other posts, each have their due process; sometimes you get people appointed without an election, like in the case of the current UK PM, there's nothing really wrong with that provided that the due process is followed.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:54 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote: With respect to the actual question of the referendum, I believe many Italians feel that good intentions (reducing the complexity of the law-making process and reducing the size/cost of parliament) were poorly implemented (major source of concern that the senators would be in practice named as opposed to elected as they are today). As such you could either make a case for a no vote on the specifics of the constitutional amendment or you could make a case for a yes vote in the name of political stability in the country.
Paolo,
The proposal for the Senate were
"End elections to Senate and fill it with 21 regional mayors, 74 regional council heads and five other members selected by the president"

Wouldn't the mayors and council heads be elected?
The issue is linking one function (major of Rome for example) that would be necessarily linked to another (Senator, will all the privileges that go with it, including immunity to criminal charges I believe). The first past the post rule for major elections leaves the main political parties a large degree of choice in handpicking candidates; while you might not have any other practical choice for majors, making those people necessarily senators as well was perceived by many as a way to force party selections onto the senate. Many poeple asked themselves why not getting rid of the senate altogether instead of picking majors and regional heads.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:07 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Matthew Turner wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote: With respect to the actual question of the referendum, I believe many Italians feel that good intentions (reducing the complexity of the law-making process and reducing the size/cost of parliament) were poorly implemented (major source of concern that the senators would be in practice named as opposed to elected as they are today). As such you could either make a case for a no vote on the specifics of the constitutional amendment or you could make a case for a yes vote in the name of political stability in the country.
Paolo,
The proposal for the Senate were
"End elections to Senate and fill it with 21 regional mayors, 74 regional council heads and five other members selected by the president"

Wouldn't the mayors and council heads be elected?
The issue is linking one function (major of Rome for example) that would be necessarily linked to another (Senator, will all the privileges that go with it, including immunity to criminal charges I believe). The first past the post rule for major elections leaves the main political parties a large degree of choice in handpicking candidates; while you might not have any other practical choice for majors, making those people necessarily senators as well was perceived by many as a way to force party selections onto the senate. Many poeple asked themselves why not getting rid of the senate altogether instead of picking majors and regional heads.
You made me look at the details, it's even more artificial than I thought. From wikipedia: "95 senators are elected by the Regional Councils and by the Councils of the Autonomous Provinces of Trento and Bolzano. In each Region and Autonomous Province, one senator must be elected from among the mayors of the respective territories; the remaining senators must be elected from among the members of the Councils themselves.". So the majority of the Senate is elected by the regional council, i.e. some politicians naming other politician to senate posts, moving the accountability further away from the common people (actually not so different than the UK system for the house of lords).

Alan Walton
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:21 pm

Paolo Casaschi wrote:Also, not sure where the "unelected beaurocratics" rant came from, but it's so much different between the EU and the UK?
European MPs are elected, same as UK MPs. With respect to other posts, each have their due process; sometimes you get people appointed without an election, like in the case of the current UK PM, there's nothing really wrong with that provided that the due process is followed.
The Legislative in the UK and EU are both elected that is true; but the executive in the EU is unelected whereas the executive in the UK is made up of elected members within the legislative unit

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:07 pm

Alan Walton wrote: personally I would just want the EU to be a free trade zone with a much simplified ToR
Yes, but that isn't what the EU has been about for a long time. Europe's whole banking system, up to and including its own central bank, is massively and hopelessly broke. For the EU's top dogs, everything else pales beside that.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:41 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Alan Walton wrote: personally I would just want the EU to be a free trade zone with a much simplified ToR
Yes, but that isn't what the EU has been about for a long time. Europe's whole banking system, up to and including its own central bank, is massively and hopelessly broke. For the EU's top dogs, everything else pales beside that.
So if the global economy was in better shape, and the Eurozone economies were all in better shape, people would be complaining less? Do the long-term structural problems and the (relatively) short-term financial ups and downs get mixed together too much?

(Oh, hang on, I mis-read "broke" as "out of money". You mean "broken" as in not working?)

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:03 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: So if the global economy was in better shape, and the Eurozone economies were all in better shape, people would be complaining less?
That may be so, but I didn't say anything even related to that. My point is that EU leaders are so completely overwhelmed by the eurozone's banking problems that they are unable to give any proper consideration to other issues.

NickFaulks
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:05 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote: (Oh, hang on, I mis-read "broke" as "out of money". You mean "broken" as in not working?)
No, you were right first time. I meant reliant upon accounting tricks to appear solvent.

John McKenna
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by John McKenna » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:46 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:What I am saying here is that I suspect more people would vote "no" if the question was put to them, "Do you want Brussels to set your tax rate"
That's for sure, but do you think the answer from the UK population would be any different to the question "do you want London to set your tax rate?"
But at least as a country we vote in the government, unelected beauracratics in the EU is a lot less attractive (obviously this could change)
Next year even more people will be trying to migrate to the United States in the hope that Trump leads by example when setting their tax rate.
The EU can only survive by not asking the people. (David Starkey)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:19 pm

John McKenna wrote:Next year even more people will be trying to migrate to the United States in the hope that Trump leads by example when setting their tax rate.
Seriously?
Did you ever move to another country yourself?
Unless you are a billionaire, the idea to migrate to another country because of (the hope of) better tax break is totally ridiculous. Such is also the idea that someone would do the same for better unemployment benefits.

John McKenna
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by John McKenna » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:36 am

Yes, Paolo, I have lived and worked abroad.

It is you who cannot be serious when you say what you have said, immediately above, which I will not bother repeating or addressing since it does not merit any discussion whatsoever.

It seems to me that you are not at all happy with the way things are going in Europe.

I can understand and sympathise with you in that to some degree, but these disturbing events are due to the failure and bankrupty of our political (and financial) institutions and those who run them - Cameron and Renzi, are only the two latest prime examples.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:58 am

John McKenna wrote:It is you who cannot be serious when you say what you have said, immediately above, which I will not bother repeating or addressing since it does not merit any discussion whatsoever.
I must be so out of touch with what's out there then. It might be just me, but I still think it's ridiculous to consider a major change in my life such as moving to another country mainly because of the hope of a better tax rate (or better unemployment benefits). Just my opinion... I'm not offended by you thinking differently, you should not be offended either by me thinking differently.

John McKenna
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Re: EU referendum aftermath

Post by John McKenna » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:07 pm

Thanks for that reply, Paolo, I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote in it.

I must admit that I was not being entirely serious about Trump setting the same tax rate for the masses that he has managed to enjoy for himself so far.

I also fully accept your personal position on not relocating just for a better tax rate, etc.

However, it is not only the super rich who will move for tax purposes. That is shown by the number of medium and small French businesses and business persons who have crossed the Channel to work and live in London and its environs.

As for benefits, some unemployed Eastern Europeans jump at the chance to move legally to a country where they get better help for themselves and their families (the same applies to others outside the EU, of course, but they have to resort to nefarious illegal means to achieve their goal.)

I'd like to suggest a book -

A Brief History of the Future, by Jacques Attali

Trump may have read it but don't let that put you, or anyone else, off - it may help to understand why he thinks it is time for him to be President.

By the way, I am afraid that Trump is no George Washington and may turn out to be a modern version of Marcus Licinius Crassus, the great Roman plutocrat who's graveyard was Mesopotamia - the ancient Middle East.

Being a modern American Crassus, Trump may find his graveyard in a different part of the world. But, hopefully he will not overeach militarily in foreign fields.

Obama has shown admirable, but at times excessive, restraint since the excesses of Bush & Blair. His successor is an unkown quantity in that respect - all bark and no bite, perhaps. But, he and his foreign policy will be tested.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

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