County Matches 2010-11 Season

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Alex Holowczak
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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:45 pm

Mick Norris wrote: Alex

The SCCU teams (all 3) and both the NCCU teams will be much stronger on paper, but it may be that the 3 MCCU teams can compete and pull off an upset - fortunately, we don't just exchange grades of players and then go home (although from a G Man point of view, we have been pretty close to it this season)
Of course! I was just wary of how strong those teams were. Staffordshire pulled off a shock at the Quarter Finals last year against Yorkshire.

The statistician in me was working out the expected result using the grading differences (every 50 grading points difference counts as an extra point between the two teams). The Warwickshire team v Staffordshire totalled 2773, the Kent team against Essex was 3106. That's 300 points or so, so 11-5 is the expected result according to the grading list. The scale of the upset would be pretty big.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:07 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mick Norris wrote: Alex

The SCCU teams (all 3) and both the NCCU teams will be much stronger on paper, but it may be that the 3 MCCU teams can compete and pull off an upset - fortunately, we don't just exchange grades of players and then go home (although from a G Man point of view, we have been pretty close to it this season)
Of course! I was just wary of how strong those teams were. Staffordshire pulled off a shock at the Quarter Finals last year against Yorkshire.

The statistician in me was working out the expected result using the grading differences (every 50 grading points difference counts as an extra point between the two teams). The Warwickshire team v Staffordshire totalled 2773, the Kent team against Essex was 3106. That's 300 points or so, so 11-5 is the expected result according to the grading list. The scale of the upset would be pretty big.
You need to go by the grading difference on individual boards, rather than the total or average.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:10 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: Their board 8 has had a grade of 200 this season.
Why the past tense? Did he misplace his grade? That would have been rather careless of him.
Because their board 8 might not have a grade of 200 for the remainder of the season. It might be higher or lower; i.e. he might not be on board 8 at all.
That's what I thought you meant. Something like "They had a 200-graded player playing on board 8 for them on at least one occasion this season". The way you phrased it, it sounded like their board 8 was (a) fixed, and (b) had a grade that could alter. Anyway, don't mind me, I'm just being pedantic. 8)

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:45 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: The statistician in me was working out the expected result using the grading differences (every 50 grading points difference counts as an extra point between the two teams). The Warwickshire team v Staffordshire totalled 2773, the Kent team against Essex was 3106. That's 300 points or so, so 11-5 is the expected result according to the grading list. The scale of the upset would be pretty big.
You need to go by the grading difference on individual boards, rather than the total or average.
Yes, but it's the same unless the difference on any individual board is greater than 40 - the ECF system is linear within that range.

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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:09 am

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: The statistician in me was working out the expected result using the grading differences (every 50 grading points difference counts as an extra point between the two teams). The Warwickshire team v Staffordshire totalled 2773, the Kent team against Essex was 3106. That's 300 points or so, so 11-5 is the expected result according to the grading list. The scale of the upset would be pretty big.
You need to go by the grading difference on individual boards, rather than the total or average.
Yes, but it's the same unless the difference on any individual board is greater than 40 - the ECF system is linear within that range.
Jack is right. Since I had no idea what the teams for such a match would be, it was easier to assume everyone was within 40 points on each board. This didn't seem an unreasonable assumption for a rough guide.

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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:07 am

Ian Kingston wrote:I spoke to the Nottinghamshire captain this morning to find out what the problem is. Quite simply, not enough players are willing to play for the Open team. Nottinghamshire has very few players graded above 180, and the majority of those are either not interested or already playing for neighbouring counties (because they live outside Nottinghamshire). In effect, our Open team would be our U180 team with one or two additions at the top.

Suggestions that we should bolster our team with some of our juniors are, of course, sensible, but Nottinghamshire has always (in recent years, at least) picked juniors for its county teams, so this is not a source of extra players. Of the five listed by Alex Holowczak, two have effectively abandoned chess outside of school (no league chess played by either this season), and at least two of the other three would most likely have been in the team anyway.
Ian

A pity, I was looking forward to playing some new opponents for a change

I'm guessing from your comments that you won't be entering an Open team next season

I understand why you left the 4NCL, but have you thought about trying the 4NCL Northern league, even if you need to be an unofficial Notts team to do so?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

David Pardoe
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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by David Pardoe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:55 am

Interesting discussion. I note that Ray played for Glocestershire some while ago...
I too played for them many years ago, when it was being run by Mike Binks...loved the days out to Devon & the South West...and I owe much to the good sports from Bristol & Clifton club, without whose generosity, transport & good company, these would not have been possible. In those days Glocestershire were a strong South West contender.
Yes, you need to have actually been a county captain to appreciate all the helter skelter and hard work needed to make a county team tick. Good volunteers to help with the organisation and transport are key.
Most important is good networking with clubs, leagues, players, websites, and various officers/secretaries, etc. Building up such contact lists and having various players giving support in finding players is essential.
Yes, I`m in favour of 16 - board matches...it makes it more worth while if you can be more inclusive & offer as many `local` players these county matches. Reasonable venues & refreshments also helps. I think many players enjoy the social side, so its worth getting to the venue about half an hour before match start time...good Saturday afternoon fayre. Also, these meetings are a good chance to circulate information..ie, about forthcoming congresses, chess news/gossip, etc.
Maybe even discuss possible candidates for filling potential vacancies for Union, county, club or other matters.
Not to mention the new 4 NCL Northern League..playing next w/e at the superb Harrogate Barcelo...Majestic.
See 4NCL website for more on that...but, as Mick said, a few more teams next year would be good...!
Its not an easy job being county captain...you need to start picking your team 3 - 4 weeks ahead of the match.
Some counties have an `easier` job, because they only play 1 or 2 qualifiers. Other counties are helped by shear size... eg, the County of Yorkshire (that 3 in one) mega zone...they might consider recognising the smaller county units..like West Yorkshire. And this might create more competition... Some trimming and rebranding of Lancs, based around Preston in central Lancs might also prove beneficial, and help rejuvinate interest....it might also encourage more support from across the region and Lancashire heartlands if they didnt have to travel to Manchester to play their home games.
But, these are just possibilities....I`m sure the good people of Lancs will have there own ideas for taking things forward.....but its important to create a sense of participation, where `genuine locals` really feel they can be involved.
Yes, there is a rich vein of chess activity, so looking out for potential `conflicts` is important. Maybe some restructuring is needed...but effective publicity for all the excellent offerings is vital. Will our Media/Press help get the message out to joe public that there is much going on in the chess scene...and you dont need to be GM standard to partake of these good things.
I`ve made my observations about the county chess scene previously..
I don`t like the ploy of `bussing in outside players` that various counties employ. I believe that county players should be `current locals`, and that others `bussed in`, etc..or long lost uncles/ghosts from the past, should be penalised..possibly by deducting a qtr point for each such player.
Some tidying up of the county rules is overdue....
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Sean Hewitt

Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:02 pm

David Pardoe wrote:I believe that county players should be `current locals`, and that others `bussed in` should be penalised..possibly by deducting a qtr point for each such player.
Go on, I'll bite. This is utter rubbish. If you're born and bred in Somewhereshire it's absolutely right that you remain qualified to play for that county forever. You are, after all, supposed to be representing your county.

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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:51 pm

David, I think your idea of splitting large counties is totally wrong, it is deflecting away from the main problem of lack of interest within other counties, personally the decision I made for not playing for GMan is totally down to the excess travelling from playing in the MCCU

There is still alot of passion for people playing for there county (Lancs or Yorks), people in Yorks have immense passion playing for a unified Yorkshire, if you spoke to somebody from Sheffield/Leeds/Bradford/York etc. and asked them where they are from they will always say Yorkshire, not West/North/South Yorkshire.

If somebody asked you what county is Preston, Blackburn, Leeds, Sheffield is in, the majority would just say Lancs or Yorkshire

Sean Hewitt

Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:13 pm

Alan Walton wrote:David, I think your idea of splitting large counties is totally wrong, it is deflecting away from the main problem of lack of interest within other counties, personally the decision I made for not playing for GMan is totally down to the excess travelling from playing in the MCCU
I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of which county a player chooses to play for.

But considering that GMan played two games in the MCCU this season, one at Newcastle-under-Lyme (50 miles / 60 mins from Manchester) and the other at Holmes Chapel (37 miles / 45 mins from Manchester) I wonder how much travelling is "excess travelling"?

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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:29 pm

The problem that David Pardoe mentions with the NCCU isn't really an easy problem to solve. The two counties that dominate are Lancashire and Yorkshire. If you're going to have a zonal structure, then you can't really complain about who is in your zone. The competition is based on geography, after all. Some counties will be bigger than others. Blame the Normans!

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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:51 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Alan Walton wrote:David, I think your idea of splitting large counties is totally wrong, it is deflecting away from the main problem of lack of interest within other counties, personally the decision I made for not playing for GMan is totally down to the excess travelling from playing in the MCCU
I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of which county a player chooses to play for.

But considering that GMan played two games in the MCCU this season, one at Newcastle-under-Lyme (50 miles / 60 mins from Manchester) and the other at Holmes Chapel (37 miles / 45 mins from Manchester) I wonder how much travelling is "excess travelling"?
Sean,

You have to remember that I live in North East Manchester (15 miles from Manchester, a part of my village is historically called County End, the Lancs/Yorks border), so normally on a good day Holmes Chapel is approximately 60 min drive and Stoke is around 80-90 mins, comparing this with playing for Yorkshire, when I play for Yorkshire against Lancs, the matches are either at Heywood (10 min) or Bradford (30-40 min) or Leeds (train takes 30 mins)

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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by David Pardoe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:55 pm

Alan,
I can sympathise with your arguement, particularly since Yorks only play one match in the qualifiers...and its close to your locality. But dont forget that (even a county with several fixtures dont have to play the same players in all matches...these situations give chances for various players in the `pool` to make an appearance).
You mention your travel situation in a micky mouse sized county like GMan...imagine what its like for players living in the extremities of counties like Yorks....I`d certainly go for at least considering an east-west split & have two representitive teams, with the M1/A1 as the dividing line...perhaps. But Im only using Yorks as a token example to illustrate some possibilities.
I`m not against borderline cases having some choice. But when you bus players in from Oxford to play for (say Cumbria), Im afraid I dont buy into that one....particularly if they dont visit/associate with that county from one year to another. My view is that if you`ve moved to a new area then (generally), you should try to participate in that new areas activities.
I`m originally from the north east, but I wouldnt dream of playing for Durham...fine county though it is...its just too far to travel, unless its for a holiday or family visit, etc.
And West Yorkshire is a county, so why not have a county side. But I know there are various points of view....and Im not going to pick on them particularly. Disappointing that no other counties feel able to take on Lancs & Yorks, so you are left with qualifying non-events in the NCCU.
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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:02 pm

David Pardoe wrote: I`m not against borderline cases having some choice. But when you bus players in from Oxford to play for (say Cumbria), Im afraid I dont buy into that one....particularly if they dont visit/associate with that county from one year to another. My view is that if you`ve moved to a new area then (generally), you should try to participate in that new areas activities.
You might be missing something here. Oxfordshire don't play in the County Championship, preferring the Chiltern League, so would you rather the player concerned didn't play in the County Championship at all?
David Pardoe wrote:I`m originally from the north east, but I wouldnt dream of playing for Durham...fine county though it is...its just too far to travel, unless its for a holiday or family visit, etc.
Or for a county match away to Durham, perhaps? :wink:
David Pardoe wrote:And West Yorkshire is a county
I'm sorry, but no it isn't. Greater Manchester isn't a county, and West Yorkshire holds exactly the same administrative status as GM. Specifically, that of a metropolitan county, not a ceremonial county (which is what we historically know as a county).

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: County Matches 2010-11 Season

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:36 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
David Pardoe wrote: And West Yorkshire is a county
I'm sorry, but no it isn't. Greater Manchester isn't a county, and West Yorkshire holds exactly the same administrative status as GM. Specifically, that of a metropolitan county, not a ceremonial county (which is what we historically know as a county).
Except that the County Championship doesn't specify whether the counties in question need to be metropolitan counties or ceremonial counties. (Or, in some cases, neither: "Cheshire and North Wales" is the one I'm thinking of.)

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