To grade or not to grade

General discussions about grading.
David Robertson
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by David Robertson » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:19 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:35 pm
One approach could be to ask the players if they were both happy for it to be graded
But when? Ideally before the first move; and before a third party. Anything else, as in the case reported, and you allowing 'gaming' of the outcome.

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David Shepherd
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:42 pm

I was thinking that if they were both happy for the game to be graded then since what is the correct course of action is somewhat unclear, it would be acceptable to grade it as both players thought it was a live game at the time and move on. (Technically I suspect it is two games, one default and one unequal times so neither is eligible for grading). If of course one player is not happy for it to be graded then someone will have to make a call on what is correct/appropriate.

Brian Towers
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Brian Towers » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:55 pm

David Shepherd wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:42 pm
Technically I suspect it is two games, one default and one unequal times so neither is eligible for grading
Wrong on both counts.

After the infamous Reuben-Miles zero move draw in the last round of a tournament in the mid 70's it has been necessary for each player to play at least one move for it to count as a game.

Where on earth do you get the "unequal times" nonsense from? Are you seriously suggesting that the only games which should be graded are those where both players are sitting at the board when the clocks are started? You are worse than Kirsan!
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

NickFaulks
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:28 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:55 pm
Are you seriously suggesting that the only games which should be graded are those where both players are sitting at the board when the clocks are started?
I think David is suggesting that the only games which should be graded are those where both players have the same amount of time at the point where it becomes clear that they will be graded. That's different.

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David Shepherd
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by David Shepherd » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:28 am

Brian I am agreeing with E M White above that technically there was one "non" game if you prefer that term that ended at the default time and a friendly game that started at the time of the default (at which point the clocks were not equal). Another view (and I think one that more reflects the reality of this case) is that there was just one game and that the default time was only relevant for the league rules.

I think these different views result in different opinions over whether the game should be graded. Given the players at the time viewed it as just one game I am suggesting that this should be the default position for grading unless either player objects in which case a decision would need to be made.

Nick Grey's point about substitutions is interesting, my view is that where a substation is made after the clocks have started the game should not be graded although I suspect in practice they are graded?

Paul Dargan
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Paul Dargan » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:50 am

In reality 'unequal times' games are graded all the time. Any substitution in 4NCL is meant to be with AT LEAST 30 mins less than the original time (although I know that in one case one of our players asked just to start normally as the opposition knew they needed to sub before the match started).

To my mind once you agree to start playing, unless there is an unambiguous agrement otherwise, then it should be graded - regardless of times on clocks, subs, etc...

Paul

Michael Flatt
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Michael Flatt » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:20 pm

Paul Dargan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:50 am
In reality 'unequal times' games are graded all the time. Any substitution in 4NCL is meant to be with AT LEAST 30 mins less than the original time (although I know that in one case one of our players asked just to start normally as the opposition knew they needed to sub before the match started).

To my mind once you agree to start playing, unless there is an unambiguous agrement otherwise, then it should be graded - regardless of times on clocks, subs, etc...

Paul
Agreed.

The real controversy is why the game wasn't accepted as a legitimate game in the match itself. It is unfair on both players if the status of the game isn't determined at the of start of play.

If a player (or his captain) had claimed a win by default through his opponent not having made his first move within the specified time the game should never have been played, except as a graded friendly.

Does the league have an Appeals procedure and was it used?

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:45 pm

"The real controversy is why the game wasn't accepted as a legitimate game in the match itself. It is unfair on both players if the status of the game isn't determined at the of start of play.

If a player (or his captain) had claimed a win by default through his opponent not having made his first move within the specified time the game should never have been played, except as a graded friendly."

Sounds reasonable. Once the players started playing, it was a real game.

I had a league game many years ago, where my opponent did not show up, the non-playing captain of the opposition said he would play, and he was busy writing up his score sheet when the 30 minutes elapsed. His Board 2 pointed this out, the opponent said, "Oh, I've lost" and shook hands. I said I wasn't sure if it were a default, he insisted he had lost and we played a few friendlies, all of which I won. He apologised for the non-appearance of the original player. Then we all went home and thought about it and the league decided it was a real game, which had gone "1.c4 black resigns", and the game was graded. It did raise the interesting point that the rules did say the opponent had to be present within 30 minutes of the start, so I reckon, you could do a Bronstein and sit there thinking for 35 minutes on your first move. Or you could turn up after 29 minutes and as long as you're present you don't need to run to the board and play a move. But it would cause arguments!

Ian Thompson
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:51 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:20 pm
If a player (or his captain) had claimed a win by default through his opponent not having made his first move within the specified time the game should never have been played, except as a graded friendly.
That would be an unusual, and I think undesirable, modification to the FIDE Laws. Law 6.7.1 says a player has to arrive at the chess board before the default time. There is no requirement to have made a move.

Michael Flatt
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Michael Flatt » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:03 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:51 pm
Michael Flatt wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:20 pm
If a player (or his captain) had claimed a win by default through his opponent not having made his first move within the specified time the game should never have been played, except as a graded friendly.
That would be an unusual, and I think undesirable, modification to the FIDE Laws. Law 6.7.1 says a player has to arrive at the chess board before the default time. There is no requirement to have made a move.
You are, of course, correct, but that is subsidiary to the point I was making.

Players commencing a game should know that it will count in the match. It does seem unsatisfactory to claim a game by default by the non-appearance of your opponent and then continue to play the game as though the claim had not been made.

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