Minimum Grades

General discussions about grading.
MartinCarpenter
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by MartinCarpenter » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:11 pm

I've just checked what he does with two totally new players via a junior event - a few cases here: http://www.chessnuts.org.uk/ny5/match.p ... =319356954 .

Essentially he seems to initialise both of them to start at a grade of zero. Unclear whether that is a reasoned piece of behaviour or simply what the software defaults to without information. Since ECF grades are fair game for inclusion this should just be for junior events and won't affect other peoples grades much at all due to the reduction of the impact for low weighted grades. I suppose that it could theoretically mess with the grades of said juniors though.

The overall weighting system in Yorkshire is easy - your weight goes up 1 after ever game and down by multiplying by 11/12 at the end of every month. (Except if your opponents weight is less than ten when it gets added with a fractional weight to make it count for less....).

Paul Dupré
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Paul Dupré » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:35 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:42 pm
Paul Dupré wrote:Another problem with the current ECF system is duplication (not so with FIDE - at least I've not heard of any), players with multiple grades. Several of my mates had multiple grades during the 1980's due to playing all over England. One even had and different name, because of his appalling writing.
I would say that once the grading list went on-line a few years back, duplicate grades have been easy to identify and have been almost completely eliminated, the more so now that players with an insufficient game count to be published can be identified. But it's also down to league controllers and club secretaries to insist that match participants are correctly reported and not presumed to be new players unless they'd played no graded chess since 1994. The BCF had the mad idea in the mid nineties of using date of birth as an identifier. As this didn't work, they were obliged to use the more sensible idea of a unique grading code and encouraging people to know what it was and to quote it for tournament entry.
Here we are 8 years later

Code: Select all

REF	NAME			CLUBNAM1			REF	NAME			CLUBNAM1
103023B	Butcher, Brian J	Church Stretton			181362G	Butcher, Brian J	Nuneaton
193653A	Brown, Allan J		Camberley			221644K	Brown, Allan J		West Bridgford
225418K	Ivanishchak, Ivan	Ealing/Acton   *		262301J	Ivanishchak, Ivan	Wimbledon
131944K	Hamilton, Graham	Kings Head			254138F	Hamilton, Graham	Scotland
260477C	Rabey, Carl		Lowestoft			282486D	Rabey, Carl		South Bristol
246254A	Johnson, David P	Godolphin Helston		275619F	Johnson, David P	Guildford
254565C	Choo, Jimmy		Woodpushers (Norfolk)		262444J	Choo, Jimmy		Ilkley
114678G	Lunn, Simon		Ipswich				192444J	Lunn, Simon		DHSS
117632J	Randall, Ryan		Gambit				187708C	Randall, Ryan		Dulwich
165738A	Shapland, David		Albany				270228K	Shapland, David		Hebden Bridge
240420F	Martin, Darren		Gambit				269714C	Martin, Darren		Hoddesdon
145051H	Farrant, James		Guildford Co.School		273462L	Farrant, James		Southampton
259484F	Watson, David		University of Warwick		331030K	Watson, David		Southampton    *
233393E	Chapman, Nigel		University of Warwick		251168L	Chapman, Nigel		Scotland
173507L	Jackson, Oliver		Poulton-le-Fylde		173983K	Jackson, Oliver		Welling
183398E	Burt, Stephen		Royston				905878D	Burt, Stephen		Portsmouth
194276B	Platt, Andrew		Wallasey			201859H	Platt, Andrew		Hull
181445L	Kelly, D		Southport			186898G	Kelly, D		Cornwall Juniors
180090F	Smith, Thomas		Poulton-le-Fylde		184700E	Smith, Thomas		Midlands Congresses
179101B	Campbell, James		Lincoln				259819L	Campbell, James		Yorkshire      *
226604A	Bedford, Joseph		Bury St Edmunds (original)	229559D	Bedford, Joseph		Maidstone GSB
215343K	Ryan, Louis		Weston-super-Mare		223601B	Ryan, Louis		Basildon
257756C	Lowry, William		Coulsdon CF			261621L	Lowry, William		Downend & Fishponds
252783C	Thorne, David J		Wellington (Somerset)		295787F	Thorne, David J		Plymouth
263689L	Dickson, Thomas		Southampton University		285204E	Dickson, Thomas		Sportsman
268594C	Sriemevan, Mathavan	Peterborough			288537C	Sriemevan, Mathavan	Oundle School
308183H	Peters, G		Devon Junior			308828F	Peters, G		Clyst Vale Community College
308182F	Tyrrell, K		Devon Junior			308827D	Tyrrell, K		Clyst Vale Community College
The fundamental idea of any number system is NO DUPLICATION yet in just a few minutes investigation I found 28 chess players listed with the exact same name and date of birth in the May 2020 grading list. Surely, someone could have done this before publishing. As it happens I don't think any of these players have duplicate grades, but just the fact that they are on the master grading list twice makes me think that the ECF don't really care as much as I do.

I don't even know if these are all duplicates, I suspect not, but it took very little effort to find them. So, why do the ECF not spend some time and eliminate them. The ones on the right appear to be the second submissions.

Maybe someone could invent some software, where you can view the places where the games were played by both players on a map to see if there are any obvious links. Maybe Clyst Vale Community College is in Devon or somewhere close by. Oundle School could be in Peterborough.
Any postings on here represent the truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God,
...and by the way the world is flat.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:25 am

"Oundle School could be in Peterborough."

It's a boarding school, so it really wouldn't matter where it was! And it's not in Peterborough, unless there's more than one school of that name... There's several "St Bede's". It would help the grading system if players and clubs reported movements. I did email Brian Valentine when I started playing in Somerset to confirm it was actually me.

I usually help identify players for the UK military championships, as (a) they frequently do not play much (b) they move around, even in this country, and (c) names can appear slightly different in different areas. And I think ECF might need a bit of help if John Smith plays a few games in Hampshire, then Johnny Smith plays a few games in Yorkshire, then two years later JA Smith arrives from somewhere hot and dusty/cold and wet to play in Gloucestershire. They might be the same people or two or three different people. And sometimes the date of birth is wrong.

Things have improved - I didn't get a grade when I started playing as BCF assumed that KJ Thurlow of Reigate Grammar School and Redhill was the same as KH Thurlow who had played for Inland Revenue for many years. It only took one phone call to sort it out, but I did ask if any checks were carried out.

John Upham
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by John Upham » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:55 am

I can confirm that Camberley Chess Club does not have an Allan J Brown as a current or past member.

No idea where that entry came from.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:17 am

"I can confirm that Camberley Chess Club does not have an Allan J Brown as a current or past member."

It could be that he played in a tournament and gave "Camberley" as his residence, not his club?

Nick Grey
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Nick Grey » Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:37 pm

262301J

Ivanishchak, Ivan
M
Wimbledon

No games for a while. used to play London league.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:22 pm

Clyst Vale Community College is in Devon, yes. It's in Broadclyst, a village near Exeter.

Richard Thursby
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Richard Thursby » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:01 pm

The two entries for David Shapland are duplicates, I believe. I played against him when he played for Albany and then spoke with him briefly (not while either of us had games in progress) at a County Championship Finals Day when he was playing for Yorkshire.

A few years ago there was a story of someone in the UK refused student finance because there was already someone with the same name, date and place of birth on the system. It was eventually resolved.

Neil Graham
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Neil Graham » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:19 pm

John Upham wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:55 am
I can confirm that Camberley Chess Club does not have an Allan J Brown as a current or past member.

No idea where that entry came from.
I know Allan J Brown - he is a retired Church of England vicar - he played regularly for Nottinghamshire & West Bridgford until recently. The duplicate grade (if indeed it is a duplicate) was active for three seasons about 20 years ago. In these circumstances it's not at all important to chase up this. Obviously if you have two entries for (say) Sriemevan, Mathavan it's clear that they will be the same person and should be amalgamated. Provided there aren't two current overlapping grading records I don't see this as a problem. The time taken to determine whether Thomas Smith (say) from Poulton-le-Fylde is the same one that played in a Congress somewhere is prohibitive. The grading officer for our local league has to be informed of the details of any new player who appears including any previous grade/club.

In another thread somewhere on here, the appearance of Graham Neil in Nottinghamshire caused confusion (and still does from time to time) when we were lumped together as one player.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:24 pm

"In another thread somewhere on here, the appearance of Graham Neil in Nottinghamshire caused confusion (and still does from time to time) when we were lumped together as one player."

Also a problem for some Asian names which get cited in different orders.

I do recall a grader deciding to merge Graham Bolt and Graham J Bolt one season, having failed to notice they had played each other (in the days when the grader got the actual results of games, not "Carlsen, M, played 10, 3000 grading points").

Matt Fletcher
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Matt Fletcher » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:36 pm

My club (Letchworth and Hitchin) have a member called Jon P Barnes. 20 miles away, playing in the same league, St Albans have Jon A Barnes - they have played each other at least once that I’m aware of, probably more. And they’re both currently graded 147!

Ian Thompson
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:38 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:24 pm
I do recall a grader deciding to merge Graham Bolt and Graham J Bolt one season, having failed to notice they had played each other
That reveals a shortcoming in the ECF Result File Checker. The current version will tell you there's an error if you have a result where PIN n played against PIN n. It won't tell you something's wrong if you have a result where PIN n played against PIN m and n and m have exactly the same details in the player list.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:54 am

The Bolt case was I think before computers got involved!

Paul Dupré
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Paul Dupré » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:24 am

Okay, now I'm the Surrey (SCCA) grader which Neil Crosswell (Guildford) should I use.

144942E Crosswell, Neil * 192 1 192 Guildford (1 game Surrey league December submission 2019-2020)
269753B Crosswell, Neil M E 119 9 1072 Guildford (NEW player 2019)

Who is responsible for setting this player up as a new player, when he is clearly already on the master-list?
it was either the Surrey / Hampshire Border League grader OR the Hampshire Chess Association Congress grader.
Any postings on here represent the truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God,
...and by the way the world is flat.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Minimum Grades

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:17 pm

Paul Dupré wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:24 am
144942E Crosswell, Neil * 192 1 192 Guildford (1 game Surrey league December submission 2019-2020)
269753B Crosswell, Neil M E 119 9 1072 Guildford (NEW player 2019)

Who is responsible for setting this player up as a new player, when he is clearly already on the master-list?
Whilst a code starting 144... is one of the originals from the mid 1980s, a code starting 269... is by no means new and must have been lurking on the master list for years. So it was whoever was the local grader when new codes were allocated in the 26.... range. That's assuming there have never been two players named Neil Crosswell playing for Guildford,

The correct identification of players nowadays is often down to whoever does or verifies the new player input for the local League Management System.

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