ECF Grading Proposals

General discussions about grading.
Brian Valentine
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Brian Valentine » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:51 am

There is no schedule to change the six monthly cycle.

It will remain in place until there is a stable robust alternative. That alternative will include simplification of result submission, even though we haven't yet sorted out what that might be.

Brian Valentine
Manager of ECF grading

Roger Lancaster
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:43 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:07 pm
"Being sure is not a concept fitting with statistics theory!"

That's true! I'm happy to bow to your statistical knowledge.
The essential point Brian was making was, I think, that one can make inferences from sets of statistical data but only with a certain degree of confidence - and, even if one is 99% confident of one's conclusion, that is still not "being sure".

Malcolm Clarke
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Malcolm Clarke » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:12 pm

Since moving to a new venue by own club has increased its' membership to the extent that whereas before we were running three teams in separate divisions and struggling to keep the lower team players eligible we are now comfortably able to run four teams and are also able to cope with the restrictions of having two teams in the same division.

What we have found though is that some of our newer recruits have grades with the letter E after them and these grades are I believe often not a particularly good indication on the strength of the player. One year a player received a grade of over 150 from 5 games even though none of the four opponents he beat was graded above 120 and the one player he lost to was graded well below 150.

I have noted several players who get a good grade through continually beating low graded players, but struggle when because of their newly acquired grade they get placed on higher boards. I firmly believe it is important that new players are given a chance to find their level at the club they belong to.

As to whether our new players would welcome monthly grading I would have to ask them that question, but I know the majority of people I have spoken to are not in favour.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:55 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:07 pm
"Being sure is not a concept fitting with statistics theory!"

That's true! I'm happy to bow to your statistical knowledge.
I think this point of view is overstated and can't be deduced from the evidence.

Dragoljub Sudar
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Dragoljub Sudar » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:39 pm

I have a grading proposal. Can we please have the February update?

I know of at least one player who entered an event in January as a Bronze member and needs to be upgraded by the ECF in time to enter another event this month without having to pay another £7.50.

Brian Valentine
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Brian Valentine » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:58 pm

The February update was published on 5th February.

David Robertson
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by David Robertson » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:16 pm

Brian Valentine wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:58 pm
The February update was published on 5th February.
LOL. He means the update due on Feb 29th

Mick Norris
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Mick Norris » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:39 pm

Dragoljub Sudar wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:39 pm
I have a grading proposal. Can we please have the February update?

I know of at least one player who entered an event in January as a Bronze member and needs to be upgraded by the ECF in time to enter another event this month without having to pay another £7.50.
Isn't that the membership list rather than grading?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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Adam Raoof
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:46 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:39 pm
Dragoljub Sudar wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:39 pm
I have a grading proposal. Can we please have the February update?

I know of at least one player who entered an event in January as a Bronze member and needs to be upgraded by the ECF in time to enter another event this month without having to pay another £7.50.
Isn't that the membership list rather than grading?
The system relies on the organiser taking the upgrade fee, then letting the ECF know that the player has paid for an upgrade, then receiving an invoice from the ECF for the balance. It has nothing directly to do with grading, although until grading is submitted the ECF cannot issue an accurate invoice to the organiser.

Dragoljub Sudar
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Dragoljub Sudar » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:59 pm

Sounds a lot of hassle, which is precisely why I was never in favour of the Bronze/Silver model.
All I know is that someone played in the Nottingham Rapid Play in mid Jan and paid his £7.50 or whatever so should be entitled to expect to be upgraded in time to enter the Nottingham Congress in two weeks time without having to pay another £7.50. Obviously I'm making an assumption that the results of the Rapidplay have actually been submitted. If that's not the case then apologies to the ECF team.

However there is also the issue of the end of February update wrapping up any late game submissions that were missed for the January release. Some rapid play games that were played between Sep and Dec did not get included in the Jan list (no fault of the grading results officer; I understand that an email of the results didn't reach him) and although they are now shown on the database 'games' they haven't yet been applied so several grades are up to 3 points out. This means one player can enter the Major at Birmingham but if these games are included he would have to enter the Open (which he would do anyway).

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Adam Raoof
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:12 pm

Dragoljub Sudar wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:59 pm
Sounds a lot of hassle, which is precisely why I was never in favour of the Bronze/Silver model.
All I know is that someone played in the Nottingham Rapid Play in mid Jan and paid his £7.50 or whatever so should be entitled to expect to be upgraded in time to enter the Nottingham Congress in two weeks time without having to pay another £7.50. Obviously I'm making an assumption that the results of the Rapidplay have actually been submitted. If that's not the case then apologies to the ECF team.
The important thing to remember is that the submission of the grading doesn't tell the ECF anything about the upgrade!

The other thing is that you always have to check that the player who wants to upgrade is already Bronze. They may think they are Bronze through their club as they play in the local league. They may not be until the end of the season, in which case they will be paying £7.50 each time they play a tournament!

Dragoljub Sudar
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Dragoljub Sudar » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:46 pm

Definitely a Bronze member, as shown on the grading database (can't see the membership list anymore of course). I want to point out that I'm not complaining about the grading team as I've always appreciated the hard work they do; I'm merely surprised that there hasn't been an end of Feb update. I sent the team an email earlier this week so hopefully I'll get a reply at some point.

Paul Buswell
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Paul Buswell » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:57 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:46 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:39 pm
Dragoljub Sudar wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:39 pm
I have a grading proposal. Can we please have the February update?

I know of at least one player who entered an event in January as a Bronze member and needs to be upgraded by the ECF in time to enter another event this month without having to pay another £7.50.
Isn't that the membership list rather than grading?
The system relies on the organiser taking the upgrade fee, then letting the ECF know that the player has paid for an upgrade, then receiving an invoice from the ECF for the balance. It has nothing directly to do with grading, although until grading is submitted the ECF cannot issue an accurate invoice to the organiser.
That's not quite the case - I do the invoices from the ECF office and the vast majority of organisers wait for the ECF to instigate the invoicing process.

To the best of my awareness almost all congresses whose results had been received by 5 February have been invoiced and any membership upgrades processed. For congresses received later I prefer to wait for the next grading database update as working from the grader's original files is fiddly.

I had done a rather longer reply but it seems to have got lost in transmission and I don't feel like repeating it I'm afraid.

PB

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:45 pm

Dragoljub Sudar wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:59 pm
All I know is that someone played in the Nottingham Rapid Play in mid Jan and paid his £7.50 or whatever so should be entitled to expect to be upgraded in time to enter the Nottingham Congress in two weeks time without having to pay another £7.50. Obviously I'm making an assumption that the results of the Rapidplay have actually been submitted. If that's not the case then apologies to the ECF team.
I've always found Paul Buswell to be very reasonable when it comes to invoicing. And he's usually switched on in cases like this, so if he does an invoice for Event X where the Bronze -> Silver upgrade is due, then the same name appears later, he doesn't bill you twice. Or if he does and you point it out, he'll deduct it. It's all very amicable.

One Director of the ECF emailed the organiser of the Nottingham Rapidplay about a separate matter several weeks ago, and sent a chaser email soon after that. He might have been entitled to expect a reply, but he doesn't appear to have received one. :(

Alison Bexfield
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Re: ECF Grading Proposals

Post by Alison Bexfield » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:30 pm

I am another member in favour of monthly grades. I am well into middle age and definitely not a junior although I do run a junior chess club. My juniors find it odd that chess grades are only updated twice a year. It does not help chess' image. While I am not hugely vocal on this forum I have been calling for monthly grades for some time. I know others who feel like me. I also want this on my own behalf. I play in a lot of go tournaments and the European grading list so updated every week. This is just normal and it works well and those that like to know about their current performance will check it out and those that are not concerned never look at it.

For those that do not see the point of monthly grades I cannot see why the proposal bothers you. You don't have to look each month. There are ways of fixing league entries to a particular list ata date in the year. And if you play a lot of games in the year the monthly list is unlikely to change much in any event. But for new players and improving players it would be motivating, at least for a significant number. Where there are genuine practical issues to resolve these should be addressed and I am confident the ECF responsible officials will be doing this as such issues are identified.

I read discussions on forums such as this which evidence a desire by the ECF to engage new players and women players and such like and make sure chess playing survives for the future. And then I see debates where any attempt to bring the ECF into the modern age is rebuffed with a call to maintain the status quo. There is a tendency for many of us to mix with people who have similar views as our own. That is human nature. Hence it is quite likely that i will know others who think like I do and that other contributors will move in opposing circles on this topic.

We need to listen to each other, not dismiss out of hand the other view point because we don't agree with it.

Alison

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