New grading conversions

General discussions about grading.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:20 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:12 pm
Does anyone know when the new grading list is coming out? And when is this conversion to 4-figure ELO-style ratings happening?
I would imagine they hope to follow the usual timetable of the last few years and publish the traditional grades in or before the last week of January. From then on, I believe the plan is to parallel run at least until the July/August list. I don't think any firm commitment as to time scales has been made to release 4 figure numbers and what reporting deadlines and publication dates are expected.

The Hastings Masters may be one of first events, which may act as a test case for how to deal with players who are both new to ECF grading and of a high standard.

Nick Grey
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:59 am

Seen no where that they will publish the test conversions along side traditional. I expect the usual results missing getting accumulated on monthly updates of tournaments etc. I'm far more interested if Christopher Kreuzer has played any chess and whether he will be lower than me on this next list.

Brian Valentine
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Brian Valentine » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:50 am

There are a few points I can comment on.

On this issue Ian was first:
Ian Thompson wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:34 am
https://www.englishchess.org.uk/monthly-grading-proposal/ wrote:
Each ungraded player will be deemed to have drawn with an 1850 graded opponent as an extra result on initial grading.
I'll take Brian's word for it that this works well for junior players new to the grading system, but what about (very) strong foreign players who enter the ECF grading system when they play in an English tournament for the first time?
There is are some relatively small revisions to the proposal following comments. One is that now no grade will be used until a player has five results, so the carry forward volume will increase. The outcome of this is that this dummy result will form one 1/6 of the initial grade. It's main function is to dampen extreme performances. It seems an over-complication to replace this one number with something that looks more authentic. The number has changed to 1800 standard play. 1700 rapidplay as these have worked better on our database to maintain stability of average grade.
dejan_lekic wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:42 pm
Assuming they have historical data, with all results for past N years, I wonder why do they not calculate ELOs from scratch instead of converting existing ECF grades to ELO? This would ensure most accurate ELO ratings. - Sure this is computationally heavy process, but it can be done extremely fast if properly distributed (I kinda know little bit about these things being software engineer for 20+ years).
I think your underlying assumption is that current ECF grades are not good grades. I disagree with this.

It looks as though 3-digit grades will follow Roger's timetable (fingers crossed) and we plan to publish the provisional first 4-digit numbers soon after (not that these should surprise anyone). The final initial lists to be used in future grades will depend on corrections to the 3-digit grades updated each month. I can't give a schedule for the monthly update of 4-digit grades at this stage.

I expect to put the revised algorithm on the website and update the FAQ document in the next few days.

Brian Valentine
Manager of ECF Grading

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:41 am

Nick Grey wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:59 am
Seen no where that they will publish the test conversions along side traditional. I expect the usual results missing getting accumulated on monthly updates of tournaments etc. I'm far more interested if Christopher Kreuzer has played any chess and whether he will be lower than me on this next list.
Yes, my chess playing activity has dropped off precipitously to only a few games a year. It was very difficult to reduce the amount of chess I was playing (even though I had taken a conscious decision to do that in part because of other demands on my time and in part because I realised I was playing too much chess). But once I was playing less, it became easier to play less and less. And other matters are still taking up lots of my time. It is difficult to reverse the trend and play more chess again, something that I was not expecting!

I have still managed to play at least one game a season, and also at least one game per half season. It is a bit shocking to realise that my last win over the board was on 9 February 2018 against one Nick Faulks (i.e. I went the whole of 2019 without a win, and it is coming up to two years without an OTB win). And since then my results have been:

23/02/2018 - loss (to a 156)
13/09/2018 - loss (to a 207)
28/09/2018 - draw (with a 165)
24/10/2018 - loss (to a 233*)
22/02/2019 - loss (to a 230*)
26/09/2019 - loss (to a 198)

The 207 and the 198 are the same player (Richard 'Rick' McMichael) and the 233* and the 230* are the same player (2370-rated FM Davit Mirzoyan, who I've mentioned here before, who scored 11.5/12 last season, and is in the ECF grading database as David Mirzoyan, scoring 6/9 in the 2018 London Chess Classic FIDE Open, but only played four rounds of the 2019 edition, reaching 2/4 - he also scored 5/6 in two Golders Green Rapidplays last season and 7/7 in a CCF rapidplay - can't tell if he is around and playing this season or not).

Anyway, as I had a lot of past games for the grading system to rely on, my grade has only shifted very slightly from 164A to 165C to 165D to 165E. I suspect it might drop a bit this time, but then again it might not.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:03 pm

So what do we think the tournament bands will be with the new ratings? Something like open, U2000, u1600 ?

I like the idea of being converted to 2200+ but I feel like this is not really consistent with my (or in fact anyone elses) fide - wouldn't ECF x7.5 +500 be more close to how things really are.
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:15 pm

PS. Is anyone slightly disconcerted by the fact that if they had personal targets in terms of improving their grade (e.g. I once had the aim of reaching a grade of 200, but lowered that to, um, getting back to over 170 and then seeing if I could get to 180), will there be a loss of motivation under the new system, or will people recalibrate their aims? (in the FIDE rating system, I had the aim of getting over 2000, and so nearly got there, reaching 1995 at one point, but will have to wait until I can become more active again before setting that as a goal again).

[Yes, I know this is a good example of why setting targets like this is not helpful! Improve your chess by the right sort of study and training and the rating/grading changes will come naturally.]

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Joey Stewart
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Joey Stewart » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:00 pm

You will probably find that you are more naturally motivated to work on your game when trying to reach a target then just learning theory for the sake of it.

Not sure what sort of targets might be realistic with the new system - if it turns out to be as broken as fide ratings then I'm sure everyone will be struggling to get to 2000 within a few years
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:06 pm

Should this be the year I abandon using ECF grades to determine eligibility for sections and just go with FIDE ratings?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:47 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:06 pm
Should this be the year I abandon using ECF grades to determine eligibility for sections and just go with FIDE ratings?
A number of organisers have a seeming distrust of the rankings implied by the FIDE ratings and they use both. The 4NCL Congresses impose an upper limit of 175 for an Under 2000 Section, and 180 for Under 2050. The Warwick Congress has 170 for an under 1975.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:47 pm
Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:06 pm
Should this be the year I abandon using ECF grades to determine eligibility for sections and just go with FIDE ratings?
A number of organisers have a seeming distrust of the rankings implied by the FIDE ratings and they use both. The 4NCL Congresses impose an upper limit of 175 for an Under 2000 Section, and 180 for Under 2050. The Warwick Congress has 170 for an under 1975.
I do this too, but once the ECF abandons three digit grades it will get confusing, and not just for rookies!

NickFaulks
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:59 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:06 pm
Should this be the year I abandon using ECF grades to determine eligibility for sections and just go with FIDE ratings?
For so long as you have to operate under a federation which discourages FIDE rating, it will be difficult.

Nick Grey
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:06 pm

Adam no. Then again the rapidplay grades have lots more anomalies too. I have played about 20 rapidplay games in 20 years. Some players have big FIDE and ECF SLOWPLAY to rapidplay ratings. Was in an interesting section in the London Chess Classic rapidplay.

I am trying to work out whether I'm eligible for the u120 section of the Kingston rapidplay rather than play in a county U180 match on Saturday week.
Kingston takes me 20 minutes. Cheam is 30 minutes. ALSO that you will be there along with most of my chess playing friends.

Not sure if we are going to get a team together for the County match.

David Sedgwick
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:14 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:56 pm
I do this too, but once the ECF abandons three digit grades it will get confusing, and not just for rookies!
American chess players don't seem to have any difficulty differentiating between their USCF Ratings and their FIDE Ratings.

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:59 pm
For so long as you have to operate under a federation which discourages FIDE rating, it will be difficult.
David Clayton, the ECF International Rating Officer, spends many hours of his time each month helping English organisers get their events FIDE rated. I am sure that he will appreciate the insult.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:25 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:14 pm
Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:56 pm
I do this too, but once the ECF abandons three digit grades it will get confusing, and not just for rookies!
American chess players don't seem to have any difficulty differentiating between their USCF Ratings and their FIDE Ratings.

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:59 pm
For so long as you have to operate under a federation which discourages FIDE rating, it will be difficult.
David Clayton, the ECF International Rating Officer, spends many hours of his time each month helping English organisers get their events FIDE rated. I am sure that he will appreciate the insult.
Actually, the ECF IRO has many more events that are FIDE rated to deal with than ever before, and it's not entirely my fault. His job is a time consuming one, and I appreciate his patience.

David Sedgwick
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Re: New grading conversions

Post by David Sedgwick » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:41 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:59 pm
For so long as you have to operate under a federation which discourages FIDE rating, it will be difficult.
David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:14 pm
David Clayton, the ECF International Rating Officer, spends many hours of his time each month helping English organisers get their events FIDE rated. I am sure that he will appreciate the insult.
Adam Raoof wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:25 pm
Actually, the ECF IRO has many more events that are FIDE rated to deal with than ever before, and it's not entirely my fault. His job is a time consuming one, and I appreciate his patience.
For the avoidance of doubt, my comments above were directed at Nick, not Adam.

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