Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

General discussions about ratings.
Tim Spanton
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am
Contact:

Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Tim Spanton » Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:52 am

Interesting article at ChessBase https://en.chessbase.com/post/a-look-at ... -year-2021 includes:

England: a strong national chess-team but only 3614 players got an FIDE Elo rating? The English Chess Federation has about 12400 members. Brian Valentine, the rating manager of the ECF told me about the specialities of the English chess scene. According to him the reason for having an own separate rating system is because FIDE does not cater for English recreational chess. English chess comes from a tradition of mid-week evening chess where law modifications make such games ineligible for FIDE rating. Many weekend events are FIDE rated but that applies to a smaller pool of players. Even here some of the lower sections are not FIDE rated to attract local players who have no interest in an international rating.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21291
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:08 am

Brian Valentine at chessbase quoted by Tim Spanton wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:52 am
English chess comes from a tradition of mid-week evening chess where law modifications make such games ineligible for FIDE rating.
Simpler than that surely. If you want to run events open to all players and with all games rated, there's a hole in the FIDE rating coverage that you have to choose between a maximum nominal session length of two hours (60 minutes per player) or a minimum of four hours (120 minutes per player).
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 5803
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Oct 02, 2021 1:08 pm

I suspect many lower-rated players don't want to pay an extra amount of money to ECF to get a FIDE rating. The same people frequently don't like speed chess and they would regard a 2-hour session as speed... I've certainly known people who are unhappy at being ECF members anyway, maybe they tolerate the cost as they get a rating, but I think many would be horrified to see the attitudes of some of those standing for election. "Sorry, Alf, these are the people who will decide how to spend your money."

AndrewBanks
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 7:01 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by AndrewBanks » Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:58 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:08 am
Brian Valentine at chessbase quoted by Tim Spanton wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:52 am
English chess comes from a tradition of mid-week evening chess where law modifications make such games ineligible for FIDE rating.
Simpler than that surely. If you want to run events open to all players and with all games rated, there's a hole in the FIDE rating coverage that you have to choose between a maximum nominal session length of two hours (60 minutes per player) or a minimum of four hours (120 minutes per player).
I have a FIDE rapid-play rating, by virtue of having entered a few local FIDE rated rapid-play tournaments (thanks, Paul McE)

I have absolutely no desire to commit whole weekends (aka family time) to a chess tournament with hotels costs, which appears to be the only way to get a FIDE Standard Play rating - although I'd be delighted to be educated otherwise.

Tim Spanton
Posts: 1204
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 11:35 am
Contact:

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Tim Spanton » Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:21 am

AndrewBanks wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:58 am
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:08 am
Brian Valentine at chessbase quoted by Tim Spanton wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:52 am
English chess comes from a tradition of mid-week evening chess where law modifications make such games ineligible for FIDE rating.
Simpler than that surely. If you want to run events open to all players and with all games rated, there's a hole in the FIDE rating coverage that you have to choose between a maximum nominal session length of two hours (60 minutes per player) or a minimum of four hours (120 minutes per player).
I have a FIDE rapid-play rating, by virtue of having entered a few local FIDE rated rapid-play tournaments (thanks, Paul McE)

I have absolutely no desire to commit whole weekends (aka family time) to a chess tournament with hotels costs, which appears to be the only way to get a FIDE Standard Play rating - although I'd be delighted to be educated otherwise.
As Botvinnik pointed out, sometimes in chess you have to give up a square to win a square

LawrenceCooper
Posts: 7167
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:03 am

AndrewBanks wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:58 am
I have absolutely no desire to commit whole weekends (aka family time) to a chess tournament with hotels costs, which appears to be the only way to get a FIDE Standard Play rating - although I'd be delighted to be educated otherwise.
You could play once a weekend games in the 4NCL although that involves having to find a team and an hour plus drive each way. If it is worth the effort to do that just to get a rating is doubtful but having played and/or captained in all divisions except the north there are a lot of other positives to playing in the league.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 4815
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford
Contact:

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:05 pm

AndrewBanks wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:58 am
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:08 am
Brian Valentine at chessbase quoted by Tim Spanton wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 3:52 am
English chess comes from a tradition of mid-week evening chess where law modifications make such games ineligible for FIDE rating.
Simpler than that surely. If you want to run events open to all players and with all games rated, there's a hole in the FIDE rating coverage that you have to choose between a maximum nominal session length of two hours (60 minutes per player) or a minimum of four hours (120 minutes per player).
I have a FIDE rapid-play rating, by virtue of having entered a few local FIDE rated rapid-play tournaments (thanks, Paul McE)

I have absolutely no desire to commit whole weekends (aka family time) to a chess tournament with hotels costs, which appears to be the only way to get a FIDE Standard Play rating - although I'd be delighted to be educated otherwise.
There are places that run FIDE-rated local league chess, but they're not very numerous at the moment. Coulsdon is one that springs to mind.

Brian Towers
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:23 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Brian Towers » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:51 pm

According to new FIDE rating regulations coming in on 1st January 2022:
FIDE Qualification Committee wrote:There was then another worldwide Zoom meeting where final decisions were taken. As a result, 3-hour games (90+90) will be accepted provided that both players are rated below 2400, an increase from 2200. Hopefully, it will help the organisers of tournaments with shorter time controls to submit their events for FIDE rating.
"(90+90)" looks like a typo but the gist is clear. Your local league can be FIDE rated as long as each player has at least 90 minutes for the game and no players are above 2400. Gold ECF membership might still be an obstacle but most division 1's are likely to have most players already at Gold level.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 21291
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:34 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:51 pm
Your local league can be FIDE rated as long as each player has at least 90 minutes for the game and no players are above 2400.
Adam Raoof has already announced that his 60 30 tornaments will be under 2400 in future.

The other problem will be that no arbiter will be present in person for most matches.

That and the ECF demanding Gold membership or surcharges could well be enough that county leagues will not vote in favour of their league being FIDE rated, even if the ban on players over 2400 isn't a problem.

Wadih Khoury
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Wadih Khoury » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:34 pm

That and the ECF demanding Gold membership or surcharges could well be enough that county leagues will not vote in favour of their league being FIDE rated, even if the ban on players over 2400 isn't a problem.
Getting rid of the various tiers of membership could help and everyone pays the gold level (or whatever amount required).

It is quite weird that in most western countries people are happy to pay a licence to play football, basketball, rugby or tennis but find the idea of paying the ECF abhorrent.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3041
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:22 am

Wadih Khoury wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:52 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:34 pm

That and the ECF demanding Gold membership or surcharges could well be enough that county leagues will not vote in favour of their league being FIDE rated, even if the ban on players over 2400 isn't a problem.
Getting rid of the various tiers of membership could help and everyone pays the gold level (or whatever amount required).

It is quite weird that in most western countries people are happy to pay a licence to play football, basketball, rugby or tennis but find the idea of paying the ECF abhorrent.
I've been forced to conclude that chess players - in bulk that is, there's clearly a subset who disagree as per the 4NCL :) - really don't like paying money even to be basically comfortable while playing. In the Yorkshire Bridge league you get nice dedicated venues and people apologising because the really rather nice buffet they've put on isn't quite up to their usual standard.

If they won't pay for basic things like that, then I can't imagine people doing it for a really marginal gain like FIDE ratings for leagues.

I also can't actually think of much I've played in where the restriction to 2400 wouldn't be a problem. York, Manchester and Yorkshire very definitely. Stockport league maybe - too short a time limit. Even the Cleveland league - rather dying on its feet - featured Hawkins turning up on the odd occasion to help his old club out.

Grade limited county chess I suppose, but you surely couldn't have an U2400 Open County competition!

LawrenceCooper
Posts: 7167
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:35 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:22 am


Grade limited county chess I suppose, but you surely couldn't have an U2400 Open County competition!
County chess current rates of play would presumably be fine for FIDE rating though.

NickFaulks
Posts: 8452
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:40 am

MartinCarpenter wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:22 am
Even the Cleveland league - rather dying on its feet - featured Hawkins turning up on the odd occasion to help his old club out.
So his game wouldn't be rated. Is that a big problem?
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a QR code stamped on a human face — forever.

MartinCarpenter
Posts: 3041
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 10:58 am

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:00 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:40 am
MartinCarpenter wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:22 am
Even the Cleveland league - rather dying on its feet - featured Hawkins turning up on the odd occasion to help his old club out.
So his game wouldn't be rated. Is that a big problem?
You could part grade leagues like that? It would feel OK for 'guest' evening leagues appearances etc (although the time limits will be too fast then anyway.).

It would however feel very strange, and honestly somewhat perverse, to have something like a Yorkshire league match and then specifically not FIDE grade the one game in a match featuring two IM's playing each other/one IM playing a 22/2300.

The Yorkshire league specifically is 110+10/move so may well have qualified before this, I'm sure I can remember FIDE rating the top division being mooted, presume it ran into various practical issues. We only recently got ECF grading in place.

Mike Gunn
Posts: 1014
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: Covid-Related Inflation/Deflation Discussion

Post by Mike Gunn » Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:49 pm

It was certainly a rule of ECF grading in the past that you had to include
all games in a tournament for grading (so you couldn't for example just
omit a few players who happened to be non members of the ECF). That
is why game fee lives on, albeit in a much changed form to the
original.

Of course with FIDE events results against new (unrated) players are
not included in rating calculations but I think you are still expected
to submit their results for partial ratings.

I think that in the case of FIDE rated events an arbiter doesn't have
to be physically present all the time but there must be one available
for telephone consultation (or am I confusing that with the
situation for national stage County Chess?)/

Post Reply