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FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:38 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Something which the titled players are aware of, but which may not have percolated downwards is this change from 1st January 2022
from
https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B022022
A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest.
Thus the second time you play someone more than 400 points below you, the minimal rating rewards have been reduced even more.
Players over 2400 have a K factor of 10 as well.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:50 pm
by Ian Thompson
Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:38 pm
Something which the titled players are aware of
Not all of them. See my post from a few days ago. The GM's Facebook posts were asking FIDE to correct the 'error'.
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:59 am
IM Jack Rudd wrote: ↑Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:37 am
Right. There's been a recent rule change such that a player can only upgrade
one opponent over the course of a tournament, although typically that wouldn't matter much.
See
https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0 (Open de Salon de Provence) for an example of this new rule in practice. The player believes he would have gained 2 points for the event under the old rules instead of losing 0.6 points and is not happy (see his Facebook posts).
If you look at
https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0 you can see the effect of the change for the lower rated player where one of his losses resulted in him losing 0.0 points.
Is this rule change inflationary? For the game between these two players, the winner gained 0.8 points and the loser lost 0.0 points. Under the old rules, it would have been +0.8 for the winner and -1.6 for the loser.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm
by MJMcCready
So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:34 pm
by Ian Thompson
MJMcCready wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm
So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.
The regulations say:
"A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest."
That says that every player you play with a rating more than 400 points higher than yours would be treated as being exactly 400 points above you. However, it appears that's not what's been implemented. See the
player I mentioned above. He played 3 players more than 400 points above him, but lost only 0.0, 0.6 and 1.0 points for the games. If the regulation had been correctly applied he would have lost 1.6 points for every game.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:03 pm
by Richard Bates
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:34 pm
MJMcCready wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm
So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.
The regulations say:
"A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest."
That says that every player you play with a rating more than 400 points higher than yours would be treated as being exactly 400 points above you. However, it appears that's not what's been implemented. See the
player I mentioned above. He played 3 players more than 400 points above him, but lost only 0.0, 0.6 and 1.0 points for the games. If the regulation had been correctly applied he would have lost 1.6 points for every game.
Surely your interpretation is the old rule? The new rule says that the opponents should be treated as a difference of 400 (Lalic), 536, and 473
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm
by Ian Thompson
Richard Bates wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:03 pm
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:34 pm
MJMcCready wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:54 pm
So if I play someone about 1000 rating points above me and checkmate them easily in the opening, what would happen? It's very nearly happened a few times before, that's why I am asking.
The regulations say:
"A difference in rating of more than 400 points shall be counted for rating purposes as though it were a difference of 400 points. In any tournament, a player may benefit from only one upgrade under this rule, for the game in which the rating difference is greatest."
That says that every player you play with a rating more than 400 points higher than yours would be treated as being exactly 400 points above you. However, it appears that's not what's been implemented. See the
player I mentioned above. He played 3 players more than 400 points above him, but lost only 0.0, 0.6 and 1.0 points for the games. If the regulation had been correctly applied he would have lost 1.6 points for every game.
Surely your interpretation is the old rule? The new rule says that the opponents should be treated as a difference of 400 (Lalic), 536, and 473
For players rated more than 400 points above you, I don't think there's been any change. That depends on how you define an "upgrade". I've assumed it only relates to increasing the rating of players more then 400 points below you to be exactly 400 points below you. I don't think it means to not decrease the rating of someone more than 400 points above you to be exactly 400 points above you.
If an upgrade does apply to higher rated players then the differences would be 1068 (Lalic), 400, 400.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:13 pm
by Reg Clucas
Presumably this is why Carlsen has scored 0 rating points for his win against Stanojoski (2412) today, following an earlier win against a 2396. Truly a 'hiding to nothing'.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:24 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm
For players rated more than 400 points above you, I don't think there's been any change.
Symmetry has disappeared. The recent South Wales Open is a case in point. Unike most UK events, it was all one section. Thus there were some 400 point or greater mismatches.
Jack Rudd's rating record for the tournament shows that his first round opponent was treated as being 1931 instead of the published 1754.
That gave Jack a gain of 1.6 points whilst the loser only conceded 0.40. Both are k=20.
https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0
https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.p ... 1&rating=0
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm
by Richard Bates
Reg Clucas wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:13 pm
Presumably this is why Carlsen has scored 0 rating points for his win against Stanojoski (2412) today, following an earlier win against a 2396. Truly a 'hiding to nothing'.
And obviously ludicrous. It will kill the prospect of attracting strong players to FIDE rated opens in the UK. Or will force organisers to implement strict lower rating limits - although even that probably won't be sufficient. (and of course not just opens - the changes will presumably apply to longer lasting events - leagues, county chess etc)
And to have come up with such a change at a time when running into vastly under-rated players is as likely as ever...
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:11 pm
by Ian Thompson
Reg Clucas wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:13 pm
Presumably this is why Carlsen has scored 0 rating points for his win against Stanojoski (2412) today, following an earlier win against a 2396. Truly a 'hiding to nothing'.
I think 0.0 is wrong. I can see that's what
https://2700chess.com/ is saying. Is it anywhere else? The rating difference is 452 so Carlsen should have gained about 0.5 points. The rating difference would have to be about 800 points for the gain to be 0.0.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:04 pm
by Brian Valentine
Richard Bates wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm
...... (and of course not just opens - the changes will presumably apply to longer lasting events - leagues, county chess etc)
And to have come up with such a change at a time when running into vastly under-rated players is as likely as ever...
There are no plans to make a similar change to ECF rating.
Brian Valentine
Manager ECF Rating
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:09 am
by NickFaulks
Richard Bates wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm
And obviously ludicrous.
It is of course rubbish, but we have no control over what chess-results produce.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:58 am
by Ian Thompson
NickFaulks wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:09 am
It is of course rubbish, but we have no control over what chess-results produce.
chess-results is showing Carlsen having gained 3.1 points from the 6 games he's played at the time of writing. Was it something different yesterday? I didn't look.
2700chess.com is now showing Carlsen gaining 0.6 points for his game against Stanojoski, and 3.1 points in total, so they've corrected what they were showing yesterday.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:10 pm
by Richard Bates
NickFaulks wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:09 am
Richard Bates wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 pm
And obviously ludicrous.
It is of course rubbish, but we have no control over what chess-results produce.
For clarification, it's the actual change that i think is bad, not the chess-results erroneous application of the change.
Re: FIDE Change to 400 point rule
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:00 am
by Mick Norris
chess.com
FIDE is expected to make significant changes to its rating system on January 1, which includes a one-time adjustment for most rated players, an increase of the rating floor, and changes to the initial rating.
In July, the FIDE Qualifications Commission (QC) opened a public discussion in order to improve the accuracy of the rating system and combat deflation.
After receiving more than 150 comments from the public, the working group, consisting of GM Aleksander Moiseenko, GM Pavel Tregubov, Nick Faulks, Vladimir Kukaev, and Sabrina de San Vincente, together with statistician Jeff Sonas, announced the conclusions of the discussions this week.
Four changes to the rating system have been recommended by the group. These changes will take effect on January 1, 2024, if approved by the FIDE Council on December 14:
One-Time Adjustment To Classical Ratings
Adjustment of the Rating Floor
Changes in the initial rating
Reinstallment of the 400-point rule
Nick can no doubt confirm