ELO vs ECF grading systems

General discussions about grading.
Alex Holowczak
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:56 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:I think the best argument is, if we had an ELO rating system, we would not have to join the ECF.
Ummm... what?

In what way is there a link between the type of rating system the ECF use for domestic chess and the compulsion to be a member of the ECF?

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:07 pm

In what way is there a link between the type of rating system the ECF use for domestic chess and the compulsion to be a member of the ECF?
The link is between ELO and ECF, we have ECF grades by default, if you want an ELO grade, you have to pay the ECF further sums for life to get and stay FIDE rated.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:13 pm

Simon Dixon wrote: if you want an ELO grade, you have to pay the ECF further sums for life to get and stay FIDE rated.
If you get an international Elo rating, you can keep it for life by not playing any more international chess and the ECF will not harass you for £ 25 every year. The trick is to get your international rating flagged as inactive whilst you are still an ECF member.

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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:
In what way is there a link between the type of rating system the ECF use for domestic chess and the compulsion to be a member of the ECF?
The link is between ELO and ECF, we have ECF grades by default, if you want an ELO grade, you have to pay the ECF further sums for life to get and stay FIDE rated.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Let me explain.

First, the Electric Light Orchestra (ELO) don't do rating systems. They do popular music. For example. Professor Arpad Elo does rating systems. So it's an Elo rating system, not an ELO rating system.

FIDE don't have a God-given right to be the only organisation in the world that runs a rating system based on Elo's work. The ECF is quite entitled to have a national list based on Elo for domestic chess. Many other countries already do this. The two lists run in parallel.

Are you suggesting that all chess played in England should be FIDE-rated? This is nice in theory, but impractical. FIDE place several restrictions on what can be rated. For example
(1) Games in an open tournament must be a minimum length of 4 hours. How do you get this in an evening's league chess? Maybe adjournments? You can't have adjudications at all. Grade-restricted tournaments can be shorter.
(2) If you have a time control with a first time period, it must be 40 moves. So 40 moves in 100 minutes + 20 minutes to finish is fine. 36 moves in 90 minutes + 30 minutes isn't fine, and can't be rated. I guess when evening leagues are changing their time controls to get around (1), they can change (2) too.
(3) For FIDE-rated tournaments, you need FIDE Arbiters or International Arbiters to be at least a phone call away. England isn't awash with such things; and there's an awful lot of leagues for one arbiter to cover. He can't be expected to be on hold for four evenings a week for three-quarters of the year in case something goes wrong.

There are probably others, but that's just a flavour of why it won't happen.

So if we need a national list of our own to supplement the international list which is out of our direct control, we then have to work out how to fund its production. This may include things like Game Fee or compulsion to be a member. In any case, it's something in direct control of the ECF, and something that they can decide how it works.

Suppose then, that the ECF decides it wants an Elo-style national rating list. Fine. We still have just as many options with regard to Game Fee and Membership as we did when the ECF's national rating list used grades based on Mr. Clarke's algorithms. I forget his first name, but the ECF uses a system that he devised the basic principles of.

Does this make sense now?
Last edited by Alex Holowczak on Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:22 pm

If you get an international Elo rating, you can keep it for life by not playing any more international chess and the ECF will not harass you for £ 25 every year. The trick is to get your international rating flagged as inactive whilst you are still an ECF member.
Its bad enough not being allowed to play in FIDE events without the ECF's say so. I think I will be flagging my ECF grade as inactive if they insist on mandatory membership. :)

Richard James
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Richard James » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:33 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:We still have just as many options with regard to Game Fee and Membership as we did when the ECF's national rating list used grades based on Mr. Clarke's algorithms. I forget his first name, but the ECF uses a system that he devised the basic principles of.
Wikipedia wrote: Sir Richard William Barnes Clarke, KCB, OBE (commonly known as Otto Clarke) (13 August 1910 – 21 June 1975) was a British civil servant. He was educated at Christ's Hospital, London and Clare College, Cambridge; he was sixth wrangler in 1931. He sat the examinations of the Royal Statistical Society in 1932 and was awarded their Frances Wood Prize.
...
He is the father of politician Charles Clarke.

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:35 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Simon Dixon wrote:
In what way is there a link between the type of rating system the ECF use for domestic chess and the compulsion to be a member of the ECF?
The link is between ELO and ECF, we have ECF grades by default, if you want an ELO grade, you have to pay the ECF further sums for life to get and stay FIDE rated.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. Let me explain.


Does this make sense now?
Edited for brevity. I think it is pretty clear what I am talking about. I will spell it out for you. It is bad enough that the ECF is underhandedly insisting on membership to play in FIDE rated tournaments in England, if the ECF insists on membership to play in English tournaments, I am not going to join.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:46 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:Edited for brevity. I think it is pretty clear what I am talking about. I will spell it out for you. It is bad enough that the ECF is underhandedly insisting on membership to play in FIDE rated tournaments in England, if the ECF insists on membership to play in English tournaments, I am not going to join.
OK, that's great.

However, this thread is nothing to do with that. It's about what form our national grading list should take. I.e. it's discussing the type of rating list you'll be conscientiously objecting from being a part of.

Do you have a positive contribution to make to that discussion that's on topic?

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Anthony.Ibbitson
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Anthony.Ibbitson » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:48 pm

Simon, just let him have his last word as he so wishes. You're better than that, mate :D
"Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make men happy. – Siegbert Tarrasch"

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:48 pm

Simon Dixon wrote: if the ECF insists on membership to play in English tournaments, I am not going to join.
Oddly enough you can get away with that one, but at a price. The price will be £ 6 per tournament as against £ 19 for membership. This seems to be a permanent part of the planning even if it annoys the Scots.

For leagues they want at least £ 13 per head per year. As a temporary measure they might allow you to play at a price of £ 2 per game if there are a lot of dissidents in the competition or £ 1 if at least 85% have signed up.

If you object to this, don't expect anyone at the ECF to take any notice. Players have little or no influence on the ECF's decision making.

There's no external reason for the ECF to insist on membership even for FIDE rated events. Again don't expect them to take any notice.

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:50 pm

Do you have a positive contribution to make to that discussion that's on topic?
Yes, I have already made a + contribution, do you want me to repeat it?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:53 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:
Do you have a positive contribution to make to that discussion that's on topic?
Yes, I have already made a + contribution, do you want me to repeat it?
No, you haven't. You've said:

"I think the best argument is, if we had an ELO rating system, we would not have to join the ECF."

Which as I've just explained, is absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:54 pm

Simon, I think you are being rather destructive here. This is not the right thread for whinging about membership schemes.

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:55 pm

Oddly enough you can get away with that one, but at a price. The price will be £ 6 per tournament as against £ 19 for membership.
That's not too bad I suppose, just stick to playing in 3 tournaments per year. Saves a quid. :)

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:57 pm

No, you haven't. You've said:

"I think the best argument is, if we had an ELO rating system, we would not have to join the ECF."

Which as I've just explained, is absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
Seeing as the topic is ELO vs ECF, not Elo vs ECF, I think that is a valid point.

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