ELO vs ECF grading systems

General discussions about grading.
Paul Cooksey

Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:58 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:
Oddly enough you can get away with that one, but at a price. The price will be £ 6 per tournament as against £ 19 for membership.
That's not too bad I suppose, just stick to playing in 3 tournaments per year. Saves a quid. :)
You don't want to contribute to junior chess? have a FIDE rating? feel the Olympiad team represents you? want the British championship to continue?

Paul McKeown
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:58 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:Seeing as the topic is ELO vs ECF, not Elo vs ECF, I think that is a valid point.
:roll:

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Anthony.Ibbitson
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Anthony.Ibbitson » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:59 pm

Haha! You have a point.
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Rob Thompson
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Rob Thompson » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:59 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:
No, you haven't. You've said:

"I think the best argument is, if we had an ELO rating system, we would not have to join the ECF."

Which as I've just explained, is absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
Seeing as the topic is ELO vs ECF, not Elo vs ECF, I think that is a valid point.
It would be a valid point if it were actually correct.
Last edited by Rob Thompson on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Paul McKeown » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:01 pm

This is :oops: romper room material. :arrow: to bed, children.
Last edited by Paul McKeown on Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Anthony.Ibbitson
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Anthony.Ibbitson » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:03 pm

Oh my goodness!!! I'm going to leave these morons to fight it out, good job someone has the sense to leave them to it!
"Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make men happy. – Siegbert Tarrasch"

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:01 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:You don't want to contribute to junior chess? have a FIDE rating? feel the Olympiad team represents you? want the British championship to continue?
As £ 18 is (or should be) far more than the marginal cost of grading 15 or 16 games, I'd suggest such a player is a positive contributor to the ECF's revenues as well as helping the viability of the Congresses in which he plays. More so than a Bronze member at £ 13 anyway. You could even term him a temporary or visiting member for the duration of the Congresses. It's when you get him to play in his fourth Congress that the money tree stops producing. The fourth Congress generates revenues of just £ 1 (actually that assumes he buys the membership season ticket before the first event) and the fifth and subsequent generate zero.

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:17 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paul Cooksey wrote:You don't want to contribute to junior chess? have a FIDE rating? feel the Olympiad team represents you? want the British championship to continue?
As £ 18 is (or should be) far more than the marginal cost of grading 15 or 16 games, I'd suggest such a player is a positive contributor to the ECF's revenues as well as helping the viability of the Congresses in which he plays. More so than a Bronze member at £ 13 anyway. You could even term him a temporary or visiting member for the duration of the Congresses. It's when you get him to play in his fourth Congress that the money tree stops producing. The fourth Congress generates revenues of just £ 1 (actually that assumes he buys the membership season ticket before the first event) and the fifth and subsequent generate zero.
Quite right, the ECF makes more money out of non members than it does from those who buy memberships to take advantage of discounts. I pay full whack to play in tournaments, which is a good reason for not having a "licence to play" scheme. The only way I can see the ECF making more money out of a compulsory scheme is to scrap discounts for members.

And to keep on topic, ELO not Elo is better than ECF. If you can't understand that, there is no point in me trying to explain it. You still wouldn't understand.

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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:25 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:Quite right, the ECF makes more money out of non members than it does from those who buy memberships to take advantage of discounts. I pay full whack to play in tournaments, which is a good reason for not having a "licence to play" scheme. The only way I can see the ECF making more money out of a compulsory scheme is to scrap discounts for members.
The Maths of this have already been done for the original paper, and actually the converse is true; if you find the mean price per game played by members it's something like 80p/game, whereas the mean price per game of non-members is, naturally, whatever the Game Fee rate is.

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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Alan Walton » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:26 pm

Simon Dixon wrote:And to keep on topic, ELO not Elo is better than ECF. If you can't understand that, there is no point in me trying to explain it. You still wouldn't understand.
I think you find it is the Elo rating system named after Arpad Elo, I may incorrect but that is what I always thought it was

Sean Hewitt

Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Sean Hewitt » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:29 pm

Simon Dixon wrote: I think I will be flagging my ECF grade as inactive if they insist on mandatory membership. :)
Perhaps along with your forum account? :lol:

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:37 pm

Alan Walton wrote:
Simon Dixon wrote:And to keep on topic, ELO not Elo is better than ECF. If you can't understand that, there is no point in me trying to explain it. You still wouldn't understand.
I think you find it is the Elo rating system named after Arpad Elo, I may incorrect but that is what I always thought it was
You may incorrect if you like, what I don't get is the obsession with the name of the person who the system is named after.

Simon Dixon
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Dixon » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:40 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Simon Dixon wrote: I think I will be flagging my ECF grade as inactive if they insist on mandatory membership. :)
Perhaps along with your forum account? :lol:
Woo scary man, you don't like opinions that disagree with your blinkered views.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:55 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: The Maths of this have already been done for the original paper, and actually the converse is true; if you find the mean price per game played by members it's something like 80p/game, whereas the mean price per game of non-members is, naturally, whatever the Game Fee rate is.
If you stopped for once relying on averages and looked at aggregates and the effect of differing activity levels, you would see that what he says is correct, for a high number of games at least. There are certainly members who are paying a high cost per game. These fairly obviously are the people who don't play very often. It's a high cost per game that the ECF wants to impose on less active club players as well. Those who play as much as the ECF CEO will be paying a very low cost per game under membership. For silver membership and playing 100 games, you are paying 19p per game. The Scotsman or club player playing his only Congress for the season on the next board is paying £ 1.20 per game.

In a Game Fee costed environment, the more games an individual plays, the more he contributes to the ECF. Think paying for buses by journey versus buying a bus pass. A reason why the Game Fee income dropped a few years ago was when the BCF started making all Internationally rated players into members and again when they launched the NCCU membership scheme and allowed unrestricted access to Game Fee exemptions in Congresses throughout the rest of the country.

Simon Brown
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Re: ELO vs ECF grading systems

Post by Simon Brown » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:57 pm

Yes, but amusing.

Guess this comment is now completely non-sensical due to moderation, but honestly, it was amusing.......
Last edited by Simon Brown on Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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