Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

General discussions about grading.
Sean Hewitt
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:14 pm

IanDavis wrote:I took a look at the page to see what the fuss was about. It does strike me as misleading.
That page says, quite clearly, that members get unlimited "Free grading of results" in leagues but that for games by non-members "Each Standard Play result will incur a Game Fee of £2 (junior-only events 50p). Rapid Play results will each incur a Game Fee of £1 (junior-only events 25p)."

Anyone who points to one part of that webpage to make their case whilst ignoring other sections is being a touch disingenuous at best.

The ECF has not said that it will grade games in non-registered events. That remains the position.

IanDavis
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by IanDavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:56 pm

I am not sure what point you are trying to obscure Sean. Unless I have completely misunderstood something, this post should be referenced on the main membership page, or, some clever little piece of wording relating the same thing should be on it.

Note, that the post I mention above is in itself poorly written, because it hasn't bothered to link to the notice it mentions.

Sean Hewitt
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:39 pm

IanDavis wrote:I am not sure what point you are trying to obscure Sean.
I don't understand this post at all. What do you mean?
IanDavis wrote: Unless I have completely misunderstood something, this post should be referenced on the main membership page, or, some clever little piece of wording relating the same thing should be on it.
The ECF asked certain leagues to clarify whether they would be complying with the game fee regulations and submitting the leagues results for grading. The leagues in the post confirmed that they would not. The ECF then made the post that you refer to to ensure that players in those leagues were aware of that. This was important as at least one had made [incorrect] claims that games played by ECF members would be graded. The ECF was keen to ensure that players knew that that was not the case.

IanDavis
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by IanDavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:54 pm

and the reason not to mention this on the membership page is what exactly?

Sean Hewitt
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:21 pm

IanDavis wrote:and the reason not to mention this on the membership page is what exactly?
It is mentioned.

That page says, quite clearly, that members get unlimited "Free grading of results" in leagues but that for games by non-members "Each Standard Play result will incur a Game Fee of £2 (junior-only events 50p). Rapid Play results will each incur a Game Fee of £1 (junior-only events 25p)."

That's absolutely true. In any league where games by non-members are charged as above, members games are graded for free.

However, for those unable to understand that I'll have a statement added that games in ungraded leagues will not be graded.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:25 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:I fully agree that Yorkshire should not expect any special privileges. However the question is whether the ECF wants to be reconciled with the Yorkshire leagues and try and tap the revenue this would bring in. Some imput from Alex H here may be helpful. What is his vision as the newly elected Director of Home Chess? Are there any olive branches available? Is he willing to build bridges with the YCA? I for one would like to know.
This is really a question for the Director of Marketing and Membership, not the Director of Home Chess. However, since the AGM this position is vacant.

However, as a Director of the ECF I can confirm to you

1) The ECF would like all leagues, including those in Yorkshire, to be full supporters of the ECF. That means having their games graded, applying the membership scheme, and paying game fee for games played by non-members.

2) The ECF will not make any exceptions for Yorkshire leagues that are not available elsewhere in the country as that would be unfair to the rest of the country.

3) Council passed a motion at the AGM rejecting any attempts to re-examine the membership scheme this year, which means that we are where we are for this year.

If YCA officials have a proposal to make for a future structure that is beneficial for the ECF as a whole, the ECF would be more than happy to consider it.
Sean, thank you for this. Although I appreciate that the `bridge building` may fall under the Director of Marketing and Membership that post is currently vacant. Also it is a statement from the Director of Home Chess that has ultimately started this debate.

The biggest unknown factor at the moment is what the member/ non member split in Yorkshire will be at the end of the season and, consequently, what the liabilities will be for each league (it may be a substantial amount, it may be relatively little). One question - unfortunately hypothetical as things stand - what would happen if one of the named leagues submitted results together with the fees for non members at the end of the season? Could these results then be graded?

I suggested on another thread that a possible solution would be to allow Gold members to have all games graded even if they were a non affiliated league. This is strictly my own view (I know Ihor isn't keen on this idea) but it would at least allow any Yorkshire player who wants a complete grade no matter what to obtain one.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Sean Hewitt
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Sean Hewitt » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:40 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:One question - unfortunately hypothetical as things stand - what would happen if one of the named leagues submitted results together with the fees for non members at the end of the season? Could these results then be graded?
If players have played a game believing it to be ungraded, it might be a bit unfair to then grade it. That said, the games would presumably be Yorkshire graded, so that might change things. It could be argued both ways I guess, which means that I am sure it would be! If this is something that the league wants to do, I'm sure that the ECF would consider it, as long as it's what the players wanted to do.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:56 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Andrew Zigmond wrote:One question - unfortunately hypothetical as things stand - what would happen if one of the named leagues submitted results together with the fees for non members at the end of the season? Could these results then be graded?
If players have played a game believing it to be ungraded, it might be a bit unfair to then grade it. That said, the games would presumably be Yorkshire graded, so that might change things. It could be argued both ways I guess, which means that I am sure it would be! If this is something that the league wants to do, I'm sure that the ECF would consider it, as long as it's what the players wanted to do.
Given that the liability would have to be paid somehow, either from league reserves or by collecting the game fee, the leagues won't be able to submit any results without first consulting their members.

We've not moved on an awful lot from the initial issue, which is that a lot of Yorkshire members are frustrated that not all of their games will be graded - ie what are they paying their membership fees for? I see it differently; the choice for Yorkshire at the moment is whether we want to be part of the national chess community or not?

Sean - thank you for taking the trouble to answer all the questions raised on this thread. It is appreciated.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

IanDavis
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by IanDavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:01 pm

I fail to understand this attitude. It is perfectly obvious that the points in green, do not unambiguously lead to the conclusion in red, from the information presented on that page. So why not just say, yes, we could easily clarify that a little better, and then do just that?
Sean Hewitt wrote:
IanDavis wrote:and the reason not to mention this on the membership page is what exactly?
It is mentioned.

That page says, quite clearly, that members get unlimited "Free grading of results" in leagues but that for games by non-members "Each Standard Play result will incur a Game Fee of £2 (junior-only events 50p). Rapid Play results will each incur a Game Fee of £1 (junior-only events 25p)."

That's absolutely true. In any league where games by non-members are charged as above, members games are graded for free.

However, for those unable to understand that I'll have a statement added that games in ungraded leagues will not be graded.

Alan Walton
Posts: 1326
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 pm
Location: Oldham

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Alan Walton » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:41 pm

It is pretty obvious to me

if you play in a league and non-members play they will be charged £2 per game per non member

From what I gather some Yorkshire leagues (and maybe other around the country) are not willing to pay this non-member fee

So the ECF are not going to grade said leagues

Therefore these leagues should openly state they are not ECF graded from the start because they are not willing to pay the additional fee for non-members

Current ECF members should challenge this or be aware these games will not be graded

IanDavis
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:41 pm

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by IanDavis » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:17 pm

It is obvious if you use your pre-existing knowledge of how the system works. :) You can imagine mechanisms for rating games other than the one you know to already exist. It is trivial to add the extra details.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19262
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:18 am

IanDavis wrote:IYou can imagine mechanisms for rating games other than the one you know to already exist. It is trivial to add the extra details.
It's a very valid point. If you can qualify as Welsh or Scottish and then become a member of the Welsh Chess Union or Chess Scotland, it would be my understanding that provided you send results to their graders, you can get English results, including local Yorkshire leagues presumably, included in your Welsh or Scottish rating.

Here's a Welsh example
http://www.robertchess.org.uk/North/pr.php?id=10

Dragoljub Sudar
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:34 pm

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Dragoljub Sudar » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:21 am

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
The biggest unknown factor at the moment is what the member/ non member split in Yorkshire will be at the end of the season and, consequently, what the liabilities will be for each league (it may be a substantial amount, it may be relatively little).
There are two issues here:

1. The Yorkshire league, as a non-MO, will have to make an estimate of games played by non-members and pay the appropriate amount by 15th December. It has to make that estimate based on the current figures and it sounds like this will be a large amount. I doubt that Yorkshire will be willing to pay this.

Has the ECF board considered how it will handle this situation? Unless it decides to inform Yorkshire that none of the Yorkshire league games will be graded (which would be grossly unfair to ECF members), it does appear that some form of compromise is required from both sides, and should be achievable, even if it involves a slight bending of the 'rules' for this season only.

2. Yorkshire based ECF members playing in non-registered events won't have those games graded and some might feel aggrieved at the ECF for not making this clear.

If I recall correctly, there was a motion at the AGM to prevent games played by ECF members abroad to be graded, but this was defeated. For this season only, couldn't the ECF treat the non-registered leagues as 'abroad' and agree to grade any games played in them by ECF members?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19262
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:30 am

Dragoljub Sudar wrote: For this season only, couldn't the ECF treat the non-registered leagues as 'abroad' and agree to grade any games played in them by ECF members?
It certainly could, but why should non-registered leagues be given favourable treatment over registered leagues?

In previous years, an estimate of a December Game Fee payment was straightforward. You know the size of the league and the number of matches to be played. In the new environment, you could presume that all participants in the league would play at least 6 games, therefore your Game Fee estimate is zero.

Alan Burke

Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Alan Burke » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:38 am

Sean Hewitt's argument against grading such games is that....

"That page says, quite clearly, that members get unlimited "Free grading of results" in leagues but that for games by non-members "Each Standard Play result will incur a Game Fee of £2 (junior-only events 50p). Rapid Play results will each incur a Game Fee of £1 (junior-only events 25p)."
Anyone who points to one part of that webpage to make their case whilst ignoring other sections is being a touch disingenuous at best."


However, as I have already pointed out in this debate, if any prospective member had gone into the ECF website as follows ....

ECF website
Toolbar at top of home page - Click on "Membership"
Drop-down box - Click on "Online membership"
Online Membership System - Click on "here"
What do I get for my membership ? - "Free grading of results (unlimited) in ....

then no such comment about incuring game fees is shown ie That is NOT someone just pointing to one part of a webpage whilst ignoring another - the statement is just not there !

Therefore, someone joining the ECF as a member in that way would not have been aware of such game fees - so why should they now be penalised for an error by the ECF ?

Yes, I believe Yorkshire should fall in line with the rest of the country if they wish to be under the guise of the ECF, but the only people currently being discriminated against in this situation are those who have shown loyalty to the ECF by becoming fully paid-up members of the Federation - and just look how their loyalty is being repaid !

I am not trying to give preferential treatment to the Yorkshire leagues - I don't think the Leagues themselves should get such benefits - but only to give fair treatment to those individuals who have shown loyalty to the ECF and are being persecuted just because of the area in which they play their chess.

If next season, the impass remains, at least players will know in advance of the full consequences of the situation before deciding whether to join the ECF and deciding if they wish to play in those non-registered events.
Last edited by Alan Burke on Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply