Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

General discussions about grading.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:01 am

Martin Regan wrote: If I recall the protection lay in the specific player grades under EU data and IP protection laws - the three figure system was also protected (though the mathematical formula was not) and although copyright was iffy - there was also a strong case under UK "passing off" legislation. But it was the IP protection that was most solid.
Apart from the minimum grade of zero, if you enforce it, there's nothing in the mathematics of any grading system which prevents any arbitrary number range being used. So a private grading scheme using Clarke mathematics could run in the range 5000 to 5300. You would need conversion formulae from grades and ratings in other systems, but such usage of other people's numbers is long established.

If the intention of a membership scheme is to abolish compulsory grading, it's a easier to do with Elo based methods. You then have a simple premise that you only get a rating by playing rated players, so games against players without ratings don't count. You run into problems if you want to entice such ungraded players into playing in a rating restricted league or tournament, or even if you want honesty in league board orders.

Andrew Wainwright
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Andrew Wainwright » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:02 pm

Sean - I really dont want to get into a debate as to how the ECF should be funded (and perhaps more importantly what it should spend its money on).

My opinion is as I have stated in relation to people playing the game as a hobby in their local pub, there is a difference between that level of chess and the likes of county, e2e4, 4NCL and congress chess etc.

The YCA league and most of the standard play congresses I am aware of in Yorkshire are ECF rated. I support this for such standard play events and I have spoken in favour of this approach at meetings where such decisions have been taken.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:13 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote: My opinion is as I have stated in relation to people playing the game as a hobby in their local pub
Are the Yorkshire evening leagues really that different from evening leagues throughout the country? From the grades of the participants, they look very comparable.

Your local opposition in Bradford is 150s mostly.
http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/?ref=18583 ... 1676933033

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:16 pm

Andrew Wainwright wrote:Sean - I really dont want to get into a debate as to how the ECF should be funded (and perhaps more importantly what it should spend its money on).
The problem is that you really cannot separate ECF funding in the way you want to. It's all intrinsically linked.
Andrew Wainwright wrote: The YCA league and most of the standard play congresses I am aware of in Yorkshire are ECF rated. I support this for such standard play events and I have spoken in favour of this approach at meetings where such decisions have been taken.
Another way of phrasing this is that most evening leagues in Yorshire are not ECF graded! Yorkshire players benefit from the fact that almost every other league in the country is ECF graded, thus keeping membership fees down for players in the Yorskshire league and Yorkshire congresses. It is a cause of angst elsewhere in the country that some Yorkshire players do not 'pay their fair share'.

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:21 pm

But the ECF Board are happy to penalise the members in Yorkshire that do!

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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:23 pm

Ihor Lewyk wrote:But the ECF Board are happy to penalise the members in Yorkshire that do!
Not at all. The rules are now the same for everyone, whether they be in Yorkshire or elsewhere. Far from penalising members in Yorkshire, the ECF is ensuring a level playing field for all.

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:24 pm

This was published on the Yorkshire Site on 20 Sept. see http://yorkshirechess.org/who-keres/

Membership Organisation (MO) Framework Agreement
The ECF CEO has not accepted our Membership Framework Agreement which we presented at the AGM. He had a signed copy from us and we understood that it would be agreed if the AGM voted to pay game fee on Yorkshire league fixtures. Indeed Andrew Farthing rang Jon Griffith the following day to find out how the meeting had gone and we presumed that everything was accepted.
A week before the Framework Agreement was to commence (1 September) we received an invite to sign the Framework Agreement. We queried it but Andrew Farthing insisted that we had to sign the new Framework Agreement which has a particular clause omitted. The new agreement will not grade members in unregistered events. For example Bradford league games will not be graded by the ECF even for its members. The agreement we signed in June stated that they would continue to grade games from non registered leagues such as Bradford and Andrew Farthing was specifically asked this question at the YCA AGM and he clearly stated that he didn’t know of any moves within the ECF Board to change this.
The ECF have effectively changed the goal posts about membership entitlement and the YCA committee were agonising over calling an Emergency General Meeting to give everyone the chance to vote again. We felt there wasn’t enough time to do so but also that the principle of remaining in the ECF was voted for at the AGM so we should stick with it. If I have presumed wrong I apologise.
What I can state is that Yorkshire has not signed a Framework Agreement which means we are not tied down by contract with the ECF and we will bring this up for the vote at the next AGM.
There are three reasons for not signing:
1. There is no benefit to players. Previously the MO scheme offered cheap ECF membership. Now players can get membership via the ECF web-site or office as cheap or cheaper than we could offer under the Framework Agreement.
2. The Framework Agreement would require us to undertake considerable administrative and accounting work.
3. The ECF have moved the goalposts:
At the AGM Andrew Farthing was asked if the ECF will continue to grade the games of ECF members played in non-registered events. He assured us that he knew of no plan to change this. But he went away and changed it in the new Framework Agreement; notifying us (without any consultation) at the end of August. So ECF members’ games in clubs and in eight local leagues now cease to be ECF graded.
Game Fee and ECF Membership
So what does it mean for you if you wish to join the ECF?
You need to join the ECF directly instead of going through our treasurer. In order to play in the Yorkshire league without incurring a £2 per game fee, you should be at least a bronze member costing £13 (or £12 if you join online) Details of how to join can be found on the ECF site.
The new Game Fee rules insist that non ECF members will be charged £2 per player per game in order for the whole competition to be graded.
Yorkshire registration fees are:
Free for ECF members.
£2 per game for a non ECF member. This will be charged to the club.
The ECF claim they will be publishing a full downloadable list of members on their website.


I think it is such a shame that the ECF Board feel the need to use the ‘stick’ approach to try to obtain members and fees. Does this mean they admit don’t have a ‘carrot’ that can entice new members? If they did then surely the named and shamed Yorkshire leagues should all be clamouring to join the ECF game fee.
Please note that 100% of all registration fees from Yorkshire League players this year will go to the ECF.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:30 pm

Worth noting that most of the keen players in the Yorkshire local leagues will already be members via the Yorkshire league/congresses and so paying anyway. Its the remaining fairly casual people who aren't and they're going to be a very hard sell indeed.

Given the fairly viscous pricing structure I doubt if the percentage who are already members dues to this is high enough to let the leagues survive going ECF graded so its very hard to see the current situation changing. (Imposing universal membership possible of course but they'd lose players I suspect.).

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:37 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Worth noting that most of the keen players in the Yorkshire local leagues will already be members via the Yorkshire league/congresses and so paying anyway.
Agreed.
MartinCarpenter wrote:Its the remaining fairly casual people who aren't and they're going to be a very hard sell indeed.
That was the fear expressed by the anti membership brigade. It seems that ECF membership take up is healthy, which begs the question - why are such casula players outside of Yorkshire prepared to join the ECF, but those within Yorkshire are not?

It's a serious question. If we could resolve it, we might be able to get the whole of Yorkshire back within the ECF fold.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:41 pm

Ihor Lewyk wrote: We queried it but Andrew Farthing insisted that we had to sign the new Framework Agreement which has a particular clause omitted. The new agreement will not grade members in unregistered events. For example Bradford league games will not be graded by the ECF even for its members. The agreement we signed in June stated that they would continue to grade games from non registered leagues such as Bradford and Andrew Farthing was specifically asked this question at the YCA AGM and he clearly stated that he didn’t know of any moves within the ECF Board to change this.
The scheme ("his" scheme) had obviously changed so many times, that he couldn't remember what it said any more. Contributors to this forum were able to remind him. It was relevant nationally because it related to what the differences were between "framework" and "non-framework" status. Those county associations who couldn't see the point of "framework" might have been more tempted if it had enabled local non-county leagues to opt in to a Yorkshire local style arrangement for partial grading. They might even have wished to reconstruct their own structures to give their league activity independent status.

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:44 pm

We are open to any constructive suggestions Sean.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:47 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote: - why are such casula players outside of Yorkshire prepared to join the ECF, but those within Yorkshire are not?

It's a serious question. If we could resolve it, we might be able to get the whole of Yorkshire back within the ECF fold.
It's quite simple in most of the country. The principle of compulsory grading is well established and well supported. Areas where it doesn't work are for junior entry level tournaments and Yorkshire. Yorkshire is because they have an established local grading system.

Of course in some leagues outside Yorkshire, casual players are just banned or restricted.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:56 pm

Yes that's the basic problem.

Imagine a league full of say 70 per cent ECF members trying to impose compulsory ECF membership on the league. They get to get their games in that league graded. What do the remainder get out of it with the Yorkshire grading system about? Nothing at all.

The ECFs pricing structure isn't helping either of course - thats designed to force membership by making it impossible to run a league with only say 70% membership. Sensible over most of the country but also peversely counter productive in Yorkshire.

The only way I can see it really happening is if the membership levels get high enough that its possible to basically collectively buy memberships for the remainder of the league. I've got no idea what actual memebrship levels are like and so how close this is to being rational.
(There are a few dedicated anti ECF folk but they must be very rare - the Yorkshire league say has basically the same players in it as other years.).

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Ihor Lewyk
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Ihor Lewyk » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:57 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: Of course in some leagues outside Yorkshire, casual players are just banned or restricted.
If the last part of this statement is true (casual players are banned or restricted) then the Yorkshire Chess Association could not go down this line as it would be unconstitutional.

2. The objects of the Association shall be:
a) To encourage and foster the playing of chess, particulalry in Yorkshire, by any means which may be desirable under the direction of the Officers.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Yorkshire vs ECF disparity

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:03 pm

Ihor Lewyk wrote: If the last part of this statement is true (casual players are banned or restricted) then the Yorkshire Chess Association could not go down this line as it would be unconstitutional.
The unconstitutional point is true of other counties as well. It hasn't stopped the spread of such rules. Local to Yorks, Cleveland are an obvious example. In some sports, playing in the local unofficial league would have you banned from playing in local or national official competitions.

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