Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

General discussions about grading.
Alan Burke

Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Alan Burke » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:38 pm

Roger de Coverley wrote ...
Whilst it's nice to again see a whole season's league results in one place, it now makes it more difficult to audit a grade calculation since you don't know with certainty which results went into which season.

I must agree with that statement as some players' lists not only include games played within the past 6 months, but also even as far back as last year's British Championships as well as some games played in a current Summer League which, however, are not shown in the "Events submitted for grading" list.

Is is not possible, as was previously, for games which are included for grading in one 6-month period to be separated into that particular time band ? The new system does seem to make it a bit confusing to identify which games are included in which period.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:56 pm

Alan Burke wrote:Roger de Coverley wrote ...
Whilst it's nice to again see a whole season's league results in one place, it now makes it more difficult to audit a grade calculation since you don't know with certainty which results went into which season.

I must agree with that statement as some players' lists not only include games played within the past 6 months, but also even as far back as last year's British Championships as well as some games played in a current Summer League which, however, are not shown in the "Events submitted for grading" list.

Is is not possible, as was previously, for games which are included for grading in one 6-month period to be separated into that particular time band ? The new system does seem to make it a bit confusing to identify which games are included in which period.
You can sort the game lists by date so you can add games from the previous period until you reach the magic number of 30.

Alan Burke

Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Alan Burke » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:27 pm

Paolo, yes, I now see that option. However, if by doing so, the list is still showing matches from further back from the previous 6-month period, it might just as well not be separated into years (ie 2011-12; 1012-13) and just be one continuous list. I just thought that if the list was being divided into 12 month periods, it could just as well be divided into the 6 month periods which correspond with the actual grading lists themselves.

That also doesn't account for matches being included on the list from a Summer League currently in progress which has not yet appeared on the "Events submitted for grading" list - if they are not to be included in the new gradings then surely they should not be included on the current list of matches as they do not become one of "the 30" when trying to calculate a player's grade.

Richard Bates
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Richard Bates » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:36 am

Inflation is rampant... ;)

Tim Spanton
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Tim Spanton » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:53 am

Richard Bates wrote:Inflation is rampant... ;)
Nonsense. We're all improving ...

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:08 am

Most unusually, my grade seems to be right, both in term of my own hurried calculation of my results and my own general feel of what I deserve (which is still set to pre-2009 standards).

However, on the latter basis, I cannot say the same about very many players on the list of top 120 players. I am not sure I ever will again. The damage done in 2009 seems to be ongoing and is not restricted to juniors, in my view.

I tried to work out my career results against other players in the top 120, in full length games. It seems to be a total of just -5 over 146 games, which is rather good for some one is 92-94 on the list. It breaks down as follows:

Against the top 40: -15 over 55 games
Against 41-80: exactly level over 47 games
Against 81-120: +10 over 44 games

Of course this to some extent reflects the fact that I played a number of these games when I was a bit stronger than I now; but it is curious that I have played the most games against players in the top 40. The lower one goes down the list, the more one finds players (aduts) whom I haven't played because they seem to have appeared from nowhere, and the bigger my score gets if I do happen to have played them.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:25 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Of course this to some extent reflects the fact that I played a number of these games when I was a bit stronger than I now; but it is curious that I have played the most games against players in the top 40. The lower one goes down the list, the more one finds players (aduts) whom I haven't played because they seem to have appeared from nowhere, and the bigger my score gets if I do happen to have played them.
When I were a lad, eh?

I don't think it's curious at all. The players at the top end have been around for a while, and it's no surprise that they have plus scores against you. However, the players ranked 81-120 players contain a number of teenagers. It's no surprise that you currently have a plus score against them because they may well have been significantly weaker when you played them. Let's see if you still have a plus score against those players in 10 years. :D

The re-basing of the grading system was a one off exercise. If the exercise had introduced errors then with lists every 6 months, these would have worked themselves out by now.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:37 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:Of course this to some extent reflects the fact that I played a number of these games when I was a bit stronger than I now; but it is curious that I have played the most games against players in the top 40. The lower one goes down the list, the more one finds players (aduts) whom I haven't played because they seem to have appeared from nowhere, and the bigger my score gets if I do happen to have played them.
When I were a lad, eh?

I don't think it's curious at all. The players at the top end have been around for a while, and it's no surprise that they have plus scores against you. However, the players ranked 81-120 players contain a number of teenagers. It's no surprise that you currently have a plus score against them because they may well have been significantly weaker when you played them. Let's see if you still have a plus score against those players in 10 years. :D

The re-basing of the grading system was a one off exercise. If the exercise had introduced errors then with lists every 6 months, these would have worked themselves out by now.
Actually no, the teenagers that have made the list tend to appear rather higher, between 41-80 and in fact I have hardly played any of them anyway (just one London League loss to Yang-Fan). Sorry to challenge your preconception, but this is not about juniors. As I tried to make clear, it is about adults appearing from nowhere with high grades, which is very much a recent trend.

Actually, when it comes to ages, I was very good with my career calculations, I included many games lost when I was a junior myself. I only included one game that I won when I was an adult against a junior who was still very young (the 11 year old Karl Mah, who I still remember offering a draw every two or three moves).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:59 am

Sean Hewitt wrote: The re-basing of the grading system was a one off exercise. If the exercise had introduced errors then with lists every 6 months, these would have worked themselves out by now.
I would have thought that unlikely. If arbitrarily you reduced all grades to 80% of their previous values, but retained the 50 points for a win, I would have thought it a matter of years before the difference between extremities and middle returned to its previous level.
Jonathon Rogers wrote: As I tried to make clear, it is about adults appearing from nowhere with high grades, which is very much a recent trend.
I didn't see many unfamiliar names in the list of players above 210, but the reaction might be, "Are they really that good?"

Treating juniors as new players is an approach different from that used historically. I don't know if the ECF did any significant parallel running to attempt to estimate the practical effects of the change, but it hasn't published it. It hasn't had the courage or the inclination to repeat the investigations that lead it to believe that it wanted to tamper, or for that matter to extend them to the ENG FIDE ratings to find out how "wrong" they are.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:15 am

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Actually no, the teenagers that have made the list tend to appear rather higher, between 41-80 and in fact I have hardly played any of them anyway (just one London League loss to Yang-Fan). Sorry to challenge your preconception, but this is not about juniors. As I tried to make clear, it is about adults appearing from nowhere with high grades, which is very much a recent trend.
Well, you must be losing to someone, or you'd be higher up the list yourself! :D

Paul Dargan
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Paul Dargan » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:04 pm

Is it just me (possible I'm on a dodgy connection in Crete!) or is the grading site down? (Saturday midday-ish UK time)

Paul

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:12 pm

Paul Dargan wrote:Is it just me (possible I'm on a dodgy connection in Crete!) or is the grading site down? (Saturday midday-ish UK time)

Paul
It is working here, it's a small step back from the previous design in my opinion but otherwise it's fine
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Carl Hibbard

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:35 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:Actually no, the teenagers that have made the list tend to appear rather higher, between 41-80 and in fact I have hardly played any of them anyway (just one London League loss to Yang-Fan). Sorry to challenge your preconception, but this is not about juniors. As I tried to make clear, it is about adults appearing from nowhere with high grades, which is very much a recent trend.
Well, you must be losing to someone, or you'd be higher up the list yourself! :D
In this last season, I lost five (!) games in the 4NCL, twice to people in the top 40 in the list (Wells and d'Costa) and I lost to three non-English players, two of them IMs. That keeps the grade down, all right. Outside the 4NCL, I scored 8/9, mostly winning against players who were supposedly not so far off my grade ... all adults, but many of whose grades surprised me, and I see similar surprises on this new list. In fact that to my mind is the main reason why I have done better this year than in recent years - I have played more games outside the 4NCL, and that seems to equate to playing more games against relatively unfamiliar players with some rather surprising grades.

Simon Ansell
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Simon Ansell » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:53 pm

I tend to agree with Jonathan's observations. My own season was pretty mediocre - poor 4NCL and London League performances (I did score well in the Middlesex League). Yet my grade is at an all-time high! My opponents were a similar group to my regular opposition, but seemed to be higher-graded on average (they can't all have improved!). There has definitely been some inflation in the last few years.

Dewi Jones
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Re: Grading timetable (June/July 2013)

Post by Dewi Jones » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:12 pm

I haven't played since 2007 when i Had a 70 grade, I come back, play one season of 25 games, and find i'm a 115 :D

And everyone else who I played in 2007 seems to have a significantly higher grade too. Now I'm sure they've improved, merely by the fact that they have 6 years experience to guide their play, as well as making an effort to improve, and possibly I'm a little wiser, take a little more time to think etc, but not 45 points worth of more time to think :wink:

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