ECF to refuse to grade Games?

General discussions about grading.
Roger de Coverly
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ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:46 am

The SCCU AGM as reported by Richard Hadrell ( ECF grading administrator amongst other posts) contains an interesting snippet.
(b) FIDE Laws and other rules. The meeting discussed a couple of things. (1) Mobiles, what else. No one suggests that the new FIDE rule in all its fervour is appropriate for your average English event. But ECF thinking, somewhere at the top, seems to be that a phone "found to be switched on", whether it makes noises or not, must incur automatic loss; and that games won't be graded otherwise. (Which games isn't entirely clear.) (2) Adjudication. It is suggested that, starting in 2015-16, any game potentially subject to adjudication will not be graded. We think this means any game where adjudication has not been ruled out before the game starts.
Council did not like these proposals. If the ECF wished to introduce either, we would want it to go to Council rather than the Board.
Arguably I should get an "official" account. I could then make such postings on the "official" forum with the implied challenge to the ECF to either delete them or reply to them.

Also, but not about grading, there is this snippet
e) EC Forum. Was it true that ECF Directors and Officers were being "discouraged" from posting on the (non-ECF) Forum? A person who knew said yes, though no one knew how far-reaching it was. Maybe the rules might appear in the Directors and Officers Responsibilities Regulations at some point.
The whole meeting report is at
http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/sccu.htm

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:25 am

e) EC Forum. Was it true that ECF Directors and Officers were being "discouraged" from posting on the (non-ECF) Forum? A person who knew said yes, though no one knew how far-reaching it was. Maybe the rules might appear in the Directors and Officers Responsibilities Regulations at some point.
Nice :roll: but will that extend to other sites I wonder so all of their postings have to be approved :?:
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Carl Hibbard

MartinCarpenter
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:28 am

That guidance about captains not being allowed to look at games when asked about draw offers seems at least moderately strange, not least because its pretty much entirely unenforceable unless you blind fold match captains or such like ;) Not surprised they're asking for clarification.

I do like the comment about the rules and auditor :)

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:55 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:Arguably I should get an "official" account. I could then make such postings on the "official" forum with the implied challenge to the ECF to either delete them or reply to them.
Or ignore them - please see below.

Roger de Coverly wrote:Also, but not about grading, there is this snippet
e) EC Forum. Was it true that ECF Directors and Officers were being "discouraged" from posting on the (non-ECF) Forum? A person who knew said yes, though no one knew how far-reaching it was. Maybe the rules might appear in the Directors and Officers Responsibilities Regulations at some point.
Please see my post at http://www.englishchess.org.uk/Forum/vi ... 4&start=30. Ten days on, there has been no response.

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:58 am

Carl Hibbard wrote:
e) EC Forum. Was it true that ECF Directors and Officers were being "discouraged" from posting on the (non-ECF) Forum? A person who knew said yes, though no one knew how far-reaching it was. Maybe the rules might appear in the Directors and Officers Responsibilities Regulations at some point.
Nice :roll: but will that extend to other sites I wonder so all of their postings have to be approved :?:
Not so far as I'm aware. My impression is that this Forum is being singled out.

I don't think that I'm the only ECF Officer who feels that you deserve better.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:13 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Carl Hibbard wrote:
e) EC Forum. Was it true that ECF Directors and Officers were being "discouraged" from posting on the (non-ECF) Forum? A person who knew said yes, though no one knew how far-reaching it was. Maybe the rules might appear in the Directors and Officers Responsibilities Regulations at some point.
Nice :roll: but will that extend to other sites I wonder so all of their postings have to be approved :?:
Not so far as I'm aware. My impression is that this Forum is being singled out.

I don't think that I'm the only ECF Officer who feels that you deserve better.
Is there anyone here attending the next council meeting that could put forward a motion asking about this ECF policy and requesting to stop discouraging this kind of direct communication with members?

Ian Thompson
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:05 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:Also, but not about grading, there is this snippet
e) EC Forum. Was it true that ECF Directors and Officers were being "discouraged" from posting on the (non-ECF) Forum? A person who knew said yes, though no one knew how far-reaching it was. Maybe the rules might appear in the Directors and Officers Responsibilities Regulations at some point.
It can't be very far-reaching, because I found this statement on the ECF website a few minutes ago, while looking for something else:
For anyone wishing to have their say on anything to do with chess or just read the views of others, the [EC] Forum provides a handy platform.
There is a section called ECF Matters where contributors post comments about the Federation’s activities. There is a specific thread under this heading called ‘Have your say to the Chief Executive’ where Forum members can post questions or comments intended for the Chief Executive and he will respond.
So, if you want a guaranteed response to a question to the ECF Chief Executive, you put it on this forum. :o

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:55 am

Ian Thompson wrote: It can't be very far-reaching, because I found this statement on the ECF website a few minutes ago, while looking for something else:
This is the actual link
http://www.englishchess.org.uk/english-chess-forum/

From memory, it's been there for a while. Presumably it was overlooked that it needed to be updated once the in-house forum was operational.

It shouldn't be an problem that the ECF has an in-house forum where directors and officers post reports relating to their activities and that chess enthusiasts are able to comment. With a few exceptions, the issue now is that they maintain silence. A title like "Director of Membership" should carry with it a commitment to engage in public debate with both existing and potential members.

Ultimately banning games potentially adjudicated from grading is the means to abolish this dubious practice. Whether the resulting slanging match and conflict justifies the ends is another matter. The other, perhaps more damaging issue relates to the presence of mobile phones and electronic devices.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Carl Hibbard » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:04 pm

Looks like we have been silently removed from the ECF site with the link Roger is quoting above no longer working!
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Carl Hibbard

Brian Valentine
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Brian Valentine » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:16 pm

I can confirm that the ECF grading team are discussing whether we should/can give guidance on the rules under which games should be to qualify for grading. The issue is very murky, as for example, the mobile phones thread we have on this forum is showing. The subject of adjudications is a part of that discussion. Richard Haddrell is one of the grading team.

The discussion may conclude the project is too difficult or may end up with a proposal for something quite radical, it is too early to tell.

Brian
Manager ECF Grading

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:51 pm

(b) FIDE Laws and other rules. The meeting discussed a couple of things. (1) Mobiles, what else. No one suggests that the new FIDE rule in all its fervour is appropriate for your average English event. But ECF thinking, somewhere at the top, seems to be that a phone "found to be switched on", whether it makes noises or not, must incur automatic loss; and that games won't be graded otherwise. (Which games isn't entirely clear.) (2) Adjudication. It is suggested that, starting in 2015-16, any game potentially subject to adjudication will not be graded. We think this means any game where adjudication has not been ruled out before the game starts.
Council did not like these proposals. If the ECF wished to introduce either, we would want it to go to Council rather than the Board.
It looks as though everyone will want their games to be FIDE rated, because they will on the above grounds be ineligible for grading!

David Williams
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by David Williams » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:42 pm

Over the years I can think of three or four occasions when my opponent's phone has made a sound. I've never claimed the game, and neither of us told the ECF about it, so I'm not quite sure how they would have known not to grade it. However, I am happy to confirm that if it happens again I will not be claiming (unless I believe my opponent is actually cheating), so it would probably be safest not to grade any of my games. This could be marginally useful, as I can work my grade out easily enough myself, but opponents who do not know me will not know how weak I am.

Brian Valentine
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by Brian Valentine » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:26 pm

David Williams wrote:Over the years I can think of three or four occasions when my opponent's phone has made a sound. I've never claimed the game, and neither of us told the ECF about it, so I'm not quite sure how they would have known not to grade it. However, I am happy to confirm that if it happens again I will not be claiming (unless I believe my opponent is actually cheating), so it would probably be safest not to grade any of my games. This could be marginally useful, as I can work my grade out easily enough myself, but opponents who do not know me will not know how weak I am.
The reason the team is discussing these things is because we have been asked by event organisers (well normally leagues ) about how they frame their rules giving the various alternative choices given by the "FIDE laws of chess". As David implies there is no chance of the graders being able to police individual games.

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but our objective would be to be as inclusive as possible. The problems arise out of various unfriendly FIDE rules when applied to recreational chess rather than the ECF setting out to make life harder for organisers, graders and players.

David Williams
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by David Williams » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Brian Valentine wrote:
David Williams wrote:Over the years I can think of three or four occasions when my opponent's phone has made a sound. I've never claimed the game, and neither of us told the ECF about it, so I'm not quite sure how they would have known not to grade it. However, I am happy to confirm that if it happens again I will not be claiming (unless I believe my opponent is actually cheating), so it would probably be safest not to grade any of my games. This could be marginally useful, as I can work my grade out easily enough myself, but opponents who do not know me will not know how weak I am.
The reason the team is discussing these things is because we have been asked by event organisers (well normally leagues ) about how they frame their rules giving the various alternative choices given by the "FIDE laws of chess". As David implies there is no chance of the graders being able to police individual games.

I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but our objective would be to be as inclusive as possible. The problems arise out of various unfriendly FIDE rules when applied to recreational chess rather than the ECF setting out to make life harder for organisers, graders and players.
There's nothing like a measured response to make one regret making one's point in a rather snide way!

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF to refuse to grade Games?

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:48 pm

Brian Valentine wrote:
The problems arise out of various unfriendly FIDE rules when applied to recreational chess rather than the ECF setting out to make life harder for organisers, graders and players.
If anyone could offer an explanation of how either of the two suggestions in the original post is of the slightest relevance to any FIDE regulations, either in place or under consideration, I should be most grateful.

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