July 2014 gradings out

General discussions about grading.
MartinCarpenter
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:28 am

Yes, what you'll get is some sort of yo-yo effect. We should realistically be able to laugh it off :) Like Richard points out though, chess players often do take this sort of thing more seriously than they maybe should.

Especially perhaps when there's a chance of setting what'll probably remain as a life time high grading, as obviously can happen with this system if you do hit a really good run of form in just the right place.

Mick Norris
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:07 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Yes, what you'll get is some sort of yo-yo effect. We should realistically be able to laugh it off :)
Not if you are looking for an U160 captain and you preferred candidate comes in at, say, 161 instead of 158 :roll:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

MartinCarpenter
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:20 pm

Bad luck. Yorkshire's (very good) ex U175 captain has just dipped back below 180 this year so maybe we'll manage a team this time round :)

David Blower
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by David Blower » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:28 am

Richard Haddrell wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Blower wrote:Do games that have been missed out but are submitted late count in the July 2014 grades, or the January 2015 grades.
The usual practice is that the July release is regarded as a high quality draft. If any errors are discovered through the intense scrutiny by 10,000 players with grades, the intent is to correct them in the "final" end August release. But if you have a summer league, it may be the practice of the league to submit all results for the January list.
Ian Thompson wrote:Graders received their copy of the new grading list last night with a comment that late results would be included in the August revision of the grading list, which is generally regarded as the definitive one, as Roger states above.
Indeed. This is all true. But none of it's new. It’s the usual practice, and it’s in the Help page (why don’t people read the Help page?):
Grading Help page wrote:Results reported late. [Late results go into the following list, but…] An exception is made for events that miss a July list but are reported in time for the August revision. These are accepted for the summer grades in the interest of having an accurate August list for whole-season use.
I don’t know which Brewood event has been left out (club championship?), but it can be rescued if their grader sends it reasonably soon. I’ve already accepted three or four late events. It’s hard to see them coming sometimes. You’re not going to go far wrong with leagues and congresses, but club championships have a mind of their own. There’s a club which stopped sending their championship to the local grader two years ago. As far as I can make out, they have only just realised this and they want in again. So they sent him their 2013-14 results, late, and they’re in again.

So pester your organiser. The ECF won’t if they don’t know about it. To be fair there’s a couple of late events they do know about, and they're not ignoring them.
Hi Richard, a bit of a late reply but just had a nice holiday in Scotland!

The club committee from Brewood are onto it, but I can confirm that it is not JUST the club's internal club championship but also some external matches in the Cannock League.

Ian Kingston
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by Ian Kingston » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:22 am

There are definitely some games omitted from the Cannock League. On checking the list of events received for 2013/14, it appears that the results from the second half of the season have not been received. Certainly my two games from that period aren't listed - and since I won them both it would be quite nice to see them included!

Richard Haddrell

Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by Richard Haddrell » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:29 am

Ian Kingston wrote:There are definitely some games omitted from the Cannock League. On checking the list of events received for 2013/14, it appears that the results from the second half of the season have not been received.
The Cannock & District League is one of the missing events the ECF knows about, and it will be in the August list. Before anyone asks, the other is the Wolverhampton & District Summer League 2014 and I hope it will. I give no details. Specifics are for private correspondence.

David Blower
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by David Blower » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:11 am

In previous years the Wolverhampton Summer League have always provided the grades for the January grades the year after, i.e the 2012 Summer League matches went into the January 2013 grades, the 2013 Summer League matches went into the January 2014 grades.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:54 pm

Just a thought about this - if you are considering changes it might be worth thinking about how the chessnuts system. The absolutely live grade element of that isn't worth that much and would be an insane amount of work, but it is actually an interesting approach for 6 monthly/yearly lists.

Basically it scraps any idea of a moving window and works by continuous exponential decay - each game starts with a weight of 1 and this is multiplied by 11/12 each month. (5/6 for juniors.). So a 6 month old game is effectively 0.6 of a game, 12 month 0.35 and 24 0.12. Then each grade is a weighted sum of the ECF grade/game.

The obviously attractive bit of this is that it does immediately avoid any of the artificial effects arising from having absolute cut off points in the system.

Some side effects of course. The first seems attractive actually - however many games you play a year you don't ever entirely wipe out the previous two years. Its probably rather good once you're playing 20+ games a season.

I'm less thrilled about how it behaves if you play less games a season. There's no equivalent 'stabiliser' like counting back to get to a 30 game minimum, so less frequent players will have more volatile grades. Probably OK at 15/season, under that probably a bit jumpier than ideal. Jon can't really fix that for live grades but if you were using the approach for 6/12 month lists it would I think be possible to fix this by using a lower decay factor for players with less games in the given time window.

Worth a thought perhaps. Probably rather too much work to be sensible :) Always in modest amount of awe that country wide grading ever happens!

David Blower
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by David Blower » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:50 am

I hope the Brewood internal club championship is also going to be included.

It turns out the grader who submits the Cannock League results was also doing the Brewood internal club championship, which was submitted to the local grader in plenty of time. Our club captain ended up submitting the results of our club championship, directly to the ECF himself, which should resolve the situation short term, but maybe not long term.

Brian Valentine
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by Brian Valentine » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:32 pm

There are over 700 amended grades in the August list including a new high for David.

David Blower
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by David Blower » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:30 pm

:mrgreen:

I was pleasently surprised when I saw my grade was now a lifetime best of 109.

5 different players from our club have their best ever grades.

This now means I have now got my place back into the Brewood B team (after having to contend with those C and D team matches for the club!) I'm joint 9th at the club, and 6,168th in England!

I'm still the lowest graded Blower though.

Brian Valentine
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by Brian Valentine » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:42 pm

I am announcing changes to the grading system effective for the January 2015 list. I think it follows the general drift of ideas from this thread.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:03 pm

I welcome the changes made Brian

Paul Dargan
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by Paul Dargan » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:20 pm

Brain - is there an anoouncement at the other place, or somewhere else?

Paul

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: July 2014 gradings out

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:49 pm

The announcement at the other place is here.

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