ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

General discussions about grading.
Mike Truran
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Mike Truran » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:13 pm

What makes you think that? My expectation is that he would have liked to respond here, but feels constrained by the instruction. Oh sorry, I mean advice. I've asked Chris Majer, Chairman of the Governance Committee, to address this issue in his report to Council.
I'm seeing Phil in a couple of hours. Perhaps I'll raise it with him and see what he says......

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:14 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:Grading falls within the province of the Director of Home Chess so I don't understand how the question of Governance arises. No doubt the ECF board will debate the Home Director's proposal and make recommendations to Council.
I was referring to the question of whether the Director of Home Chess (or any other Director) could respond to comments made on this Forum.

That is a Governance issue.

Michael Flatt
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:42 pm

David,

I understand your concern, but it more a question of what is the ECF's Disciplinary Procedure. If I recall correctly the ECF board withdrew what they had in place because it was being abused and not being correctly applied.

I don't recall whether the Disciplinary Policy was amended and reintroduced (It might now be called Code of Conduct). The Governance committee were asked to consider the question. I don't know what they reported or whether their recommendations were acted upon.

In fact, the Governance committee have no authority over anything but can make observations for consideration by the ECF board and Council.

The Directors have to make up their own mind as to whether they post here or not.
Nominations wrote:Candidates are required to comply with the Code of Conduct (Regulation No. 4 – click here) for the election campaign period.
Code of Conduct, para 2.4 wrote:Officials appointed by Council may only be removed by means of a motion passed by Council.
References:
1. Nominations http://www.englishchess.org.uk/nominati ... more-34077
2. Regulation No. 4 Code of Conduct: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/wp-conte ... b-2015.pdf
Last edited by Michael Flatt on Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

David Robertson
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by David Robertson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:29 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:I was referring to the question of whether the Director of Home Chess (or any other Director) could respond to comments made on this Forum. That is a Governance issue.
No, it isn't. The GC has no business interferring in the proper discharge of the CEO's function, as supported by the Board. On the other hand, it most certainly would be a 'Governance issue', in my opinion, if individual Directors did post to this Forum, compromising their commitment to a unitary Board.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:52 pm

David Sedgwick wrote: The Finance Council Meeting in April 2016 will need to approve the expenditure on the League Management Software - or decline to approve it.

I understand that it's a considerable sum.
Whatever the merits or otherwise of the ECF offering League Management Software, is it actually an essential part of monthly data? I would have thought a simplification of the existing grading input sufficient, such that anyone running a league on the back of an envelope, in spreadsheet or database form, should find it simple to export a file in the required format. The other thought I had is that the world standard "tournament -results" software is also capable of running team competitions and presumably exporting results.

NickFaulks
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by NickFaulks » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:09 pm

David Robertson wrote: No, it isn't. The GC has no business interferring in the proper discharge of the CEO's function, as supported by the Board.
I don't see how it is the function of the CEO to instruct elected officers on how to conduct themselves. If any individual could do that, it would surely be the President.

Do we know that he has the support of the Board on this policy? Presumably not all of them, or this whole discussion would be rather empty.

Angus French
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Angus French » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:10 pm

David Robertson wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:I was referring to the question of whether the Director of Home Chess (or any other Director) could respond to comments made on this Forum. That is a Governance issue.
No, it isn't. The GC has no business interferring in the proper discharge of the CEO's function, as supported by the Board. On the other hand, it most certainly would be a 'Governance issue', in my opinion, if individual Directors did post to this Forum, compromising their commitment to a unitary Board.
Isn't it a question of interpretation of section 3.4 of the Code of Conduct (an issue which has come up before and which I suspect may have been left unresolved)?
ECF Code of Conduct wrote:3.4 ECF officials shall preferentially communicate on the ECF website/Forum (e.g. news of ECF events should be published on an ECF site before other sites).
I think the GC Chairman likely wrote the clause; certainly he was responsible for the latest revision of the Code of Conduct. Is it not appropriate for him to be able to advise on its operation?
Last edited by Angus French on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm Peacock
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Malcolm Peacock » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:16 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote: The other thought I had is that the world standard "tournament -results" software is also capable of running team competitions and presumably exporting results.
Is that some software package / web service ? Do you have a URL ?

If leagues wanted to use League Management Software, I would have thought they would already be using one of the 6 or 7 systems that people have already written. I let people use mine for free. The ECF should just provide a better means for connecting the existing systems to the grading system.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:18 pm

I think Roger means chess-results.com which publishes the pairings, results and games from Swiss Manager software. It can and does manage leagues as well as tournaments.

http://www.chess-results.com/fed.aspx?lan=1&fed=ENG

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:21 pm

Maybe a separate thread should be started on League Management Software? As Malcolm said, there are "6 or 7 systems that people have already written". As someone on a league committee that has recently been discussing various options, it would have helped to have a guide somewhere to these options. Is anyone able (maybe in a new thread) to list those options and give URLs to them in use around the country?

EDIT: I might start the new thread...

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:23 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote: The Finance Council Meeting in April 2016 will need to approve the expenditure on the League Management Software - or decline to approve it.

I understand that it's a considerable sum.
Whatever the merits or otherwise of the ECF offering League Management Software, is it actually an essential part of monthly data? I would have thought a simplification of the existing grading input sufficient, such that anyone running a league on the back of an envelope, in spreadsheet or database form, should find it simple to export a file in the required format. The other thought I had is that the world standard "tournament -results" software is also capable of running team competitions and presumably exporting results.
(edit) chess-results.com was intended (/edit)
Last year's Olympiad for example
http://chess-results.com/tnr140380.aspx
(/edit)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by MartinCarpenter » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:38 pm

If you think about the current game lists on the grading website, the information there is already almost enough to recreate the league matches/results.

A bit of effort to present it all of course, so not much sense doing that currently because the data isn't entered until the year is over. Were it going in weekly (for monthly grading lists) then it'd make an awful lot of sense to do it.

David Robertson
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by David Robertson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:51 pm

NickFaulks wrote:I don't see how it is the function of the CEO to instruct elected officers on how to conduct themselves.

That's because you don't grasp how a Board must work, as distinct from any old committee
NickFaulks wrote:If any individual could do that, it would surely be the President.

No, by no means. Directors report to CEOs
NickFaulks wrote:Do we know that he has the support of the Board on this policy? Presumably not all of them

He has support of the Board, a majority being sufficient in all cases to define a Board's position
NickFaulks wrote:...or this whole discussion would be rather empty.
It is
Angus French wrote:I think the GC Chairman likely wrote the clause; certainly he was responsible for the latest revision of the Code of Conduct. Is it not appropriate for him to be able to advise on its operation?
I'm sure it is, where relevant

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:03 pm

We've drifted slightly from the point but I always understood that one of the key points about the Code Of Conduct was to stop officials going `rogue`. This followed a past President taking a grievance to the national press which proved very damaging. Since then the ECF has perhaps swung a little bit the other way which, to be fair, is the lesser of two evils.

To an extent it's a bit toothless as far as the board are concerned because they can only be removed by Council.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

David Robertson
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Re: ECF Director wants to scrap Clarke grading system

Post by David Robertson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:11 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:it's a bit toothless as far as the board are concerned because they can only be removed by Council.
In my view, this is an anomaly leading to a conflict of authority unhappily exploited by more than one individual in the past. I hope the IGRC sorts it out.

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