amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

General discussions about grading.
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Ben Purton
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amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Ben Purton » Thu May 21, 2009 12:49 am

Firstly let me say I dont know if this is FIDE's fault of the ECF International grader, I doubt its Neville.

But half the 4NCL results have been submitted more than once. I dont really mind to be honest, im gaining more points!, but id rather not gain them as it means sarah is now more off her WFM title than the 1 she should actually need.

Can this be sorted please. Im sure Liam Varnam is loving it :)(My player with 2400 perf)
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Roger de Coverly
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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 21, 2009 1:11 am

Weekends 1/2/3 have been submitted again alongside weekends 4 and 5.

Ian Kingston
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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Ian Kingston » Thu May 21, 2009 10:51 am

There's an item on the front page of the 4NCL web site (dated 9/4) which is probably relevant:
In line with FIDE regulations all calculations are based on the October 2008 list, which was the active list when this season's league started.

Results for the league so far have been submitted in two batches. Rounds 1 to 4 for rated players went into the January list and are on the web here.

Rounds 5 and 6 for rated players went into the April list and are here.

Rounds 7 onwards for rated players and all results for unrated players will be submitted after round 11 finishes in early May, and these will be included in the July list.
If my understanding is correct, the new FIDE rating regulations allow games against unrated players to be rated and for unrated players to get ratings from Swiss System events in which they play nine or more games (previously only all-play-all tournaments worked in this way). So it looks to me as though all of this season's 4NCL results have been resubmitted to take account of the unrated players, but this has resulted in rated games being duplicated.

My guess is that the duplicated games need to be removed, and then everything will sort itself out.

Here's Stewart Reuben's summary of the changes to the FIDE rating system, which I managed to track down on the ECF site:

http://www.chessuk.org/archive12-05-09/ ... _mar09.htm

Some of this has been overtaken by FIDE's apparent backtracking on changes to the K factor, but I think the rest still stands.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 21, 2009 1:37 pm

If my understanding is correct, the new FIDE rating regulations allow games against unrated players to be rated and for unrated players to get ratings from Swiss System events in which they play nine or more games (previously only all-play-all tournaments worked in this way).
I believe the FIDE change of rating games against unrated players only comes into effect from 1st July 2009.

Up to a few years ago, the 4NCL was only rated as one end of season lump. Whether that's worse than doing in drips is an open question. At least with the current approach, you can move players in form up the board order as their rating improves.

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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Ian Kingston » Thu May 21, 2009 2:39 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:I believe the FIDE change of rating games against unrated players only comes into effect from 1st July 2009.
The rating regulations seem to imply that this is the case, so has the 4NCL misinterpreted the changes? I'm confused.

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Ben Purton
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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Ben Purton » Thu May 21, 2009 3:16 pm

Someone our end has clearly messed it up.

Ben
I love sleep, I need 8 hours a day and about 10 at night - Bill Hicks
I would die happy if I beat Wood Green in the Eastman Cup final - Richmond LL captain.
Hating the Yankees since 2002. Hating the Jets since 2001.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 21, 2009 3:28 pm

all results for unrated players will be submitted after round 11 finishes in early May
To qualify for a partial rating (and appear eventually on the FIDE list) an unrated player needs

(a) to play at least 3 rated opponents
(b) score at least 1 (or .5?)
(c) have a performance of at least 1400 ( to drop to 1200 from July)

They're running the qualification test across the whole season so they need to wait until after the final round.

These rules have been in place for a while.

Justin Hadi

Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Justin Hadi » Thu May 21, 2009 3:47 pm

I'm trying to work out if/when I will get a FIDE rating. 4NCL season just finished I got 3.5/4 against rated opponents so got my first part FIDE rating of 2118. Last season I got 0/3 against rated opponents for a performance of 1300ish. Am I lucky in that my 0/3 won't count (less than 0.5?) and do I need some more (how many?) part ratings to get on the FIDE list?

Thanks
Justin
Last edited by Justin Hadi on Thu May 21, 2009 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ian Kingston
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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Ian Kingston » Thu May 21, 2009 3:54 pm

This may be my memory playing tricks, but I thought that it was now possible to get a full rating by playing nine games in a Swiss tournament, whereas until now that was only possible in an all-play-all (subject to playing against enough rated players). That might have influenced the 4NCL - I'm just speculating to try to come up with a reason for not submitting all of the results for each weekend as played, instead of what appears to have been done.

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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 21, 2009 4:11 pm

Am I lucky in that my 0/3 won't count (less than 0.5?) and do I need some more (how many?) part ratings to get on the FIDE list?
If you look at http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=409154, the good news is that your 3.5/4 is up there. The bad news is that your 0/3 is as well. You would need to show up for at least 2 more games, possibly 5 to get a full rating. I think the rules imply that the 0/3 is discarded by virtue of preceding the 3.5/4 - whether the FIDE rating program knows this is another matter.
That might have influenced the 4NCL - I'm just speculating to try to come up with a reason for not submitting all of the results for each weekend as played, instead of what appears to have been done.
For rated players, the first 6 rounds were submitted for the December and March lists. For unrated players, they save up the results since you need at least two weekends to play 3 rated players. For some players in the third division, I should imagine that rated players are few and far between so you need a whole season just to accumulate 3. It appears to be the practice to report results to FIDE regardless of zero results.

Sean Hewitt

Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu May 21, 2009 4:17 pm

Ian Kingston wrote:This may be my memory playing tricks, but I thought that it was now possible to get a full rating by playing nine games in a Swiss tournament, whereas until now that was only possible in an all-play-all (subject to playing against enough rated players). That might have influenced the 4NCL - I'm just speculating to try to come up with a reason for not submitting all of the results for each weekend as played, instead of what appears to have been done.
Your memory is not playing tricks, although the change does not come into force until 1st July. Consequently it does not apply to the 4NCL season just finished.

Having said that, the change should make no effect on the way that results are rated. Games between rated players will be rated in the period in which they are played whilst games involving at least one unrated player will be rated at the end of the event. Consequently, this change should not be the reason for any error in rating this years 4NCL.

Justin Hadi

Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Justin Hadi » Thu May 21, 2009 4:19 pm

Thanks Roger,

I also had a 0 (or 0.5, I can't remember) against rated opponents way back in the Coventry International (including a loss against you ! :() which seems to have disappeared, so hopefully my 0/3 will also.

Justin

Sean Hewitt

Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu May 21, 2009 4:22 pm

Justin Hadi wrote:I'm trying to work out if/when I will get a FIDE rating. 4NCL season just finished I got 3.5/4 against rated opponents so got my first part FIDE rating of 2118. Last season I got 0/3 against rated opponents for a performance of 1300ish. Am I lucky in that my 0/3 won't count (less than 0.5?) and do I need some more (how many?) part ratings to get on the FIDE list?

Thanks
Justin
Hi Justin,

Your 0/3 is discarded because you didnt score at least 1 point and you need to score at least 1/3 to appear on the FIDE radar. So your first part rating is this seasons 4NCL where you have 4 games at a TPR of 2118.

You need 9 games with 7 rating periods to secure a FIDE rating, so you won't get a FIDE rating just yet - you need to play 5 more rated opponents. You could for example play in this weekends Amersham Congress and then you would get a full rating in the 1st July rating list (provided you played at least 5 rated in opponents in the 7 rounds available).

Your Coventry result will have disappeared as it occurred more than 7 rating periods ago.

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Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Ian Kingston » Thu May 21, 2009 4:23 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:For rated players, the first 6 rounds were submitted for the December and March lists. For unrated players, they save up the results since you need at least two weekends to play 3 rated players. For some players in the third division, I should imagine that rated players are few and far between so you need a whole season just to accumulate 3. It appears to be the practice to report results to FIDE regardless of zero results.
OK - I was just reading more into that announcement than was actually there. All clear now.

Justin Hadi

Re: amateur hour in the 4NCL FIDE grading.

Post by Justin Hadi » Thu May 21, 2009 4:27 pm

Thanks Sean.

Unfortunately I have an urgent appointment with a theme park this weekend so I won't be able to make the congress.

Justin

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