The plans for the Grading System

General discussions about ratings.
Angus French
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Angus French » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:57 pm

A couple of comments concerning Paolo's API idea:

1. Doesn't it address a *different* objective to the one which the Home Director perceives needs to be addressed? As I understand it, the Home Director is concerned not with enhancing existing systems but with providing something for leagues which either don't have an existing system or which have a primitive existing system - those which would struggle with monthly reporting of results?

2. Rather than provide an API, a simpler solution would be to allow LMS systems to dump their grading submission files to an FTP server? I believe the Home Director suggested this possibility previously.

Angus French
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Angus French » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:13 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:... the ECF appear to have no in-house expertise to develop their own systems.
I don't believe that's true. As Brian Valentine said in his email to local graders, Howard Grist is currently rebuilding the central grading system. My bet is that Howard is pretty competent.

Brian Towers
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Brian Towers » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:37 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Kevin Thurlow wrote:Roger - the crosstable is left in the club's equipment cupboard and players fill in the results as they happen.
I'd be inclined to suggest that you modernise the system from the 1890s to the 1990s, that players report results by email to a controller.
Kevin's solution may be old technology, but it seems ideal and not in need of improvement. In the modern world email would be useful as a backup if the players forgot.
This is going to sound particularly sad to other techies reading this, but back in 2002 I wrote an SMTP server for a company to allow their more technologically challenged customers to transfer business data via email. This despite the fact the company also had an LMS equivalent which allowed customers to enter data into a GUI (with even a similar element of business management), press a button and have the XML transferred to our system.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Angus French
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Angus French » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:03 pm

Brian Towers wrote:At the server end it means logging and rollback capability because human beings make mistakes from time to time and these have to be easily correctable. (This looks like an omission in the ECF document).
Didn't notice a previous response to Brian's comment about logging and rollbacks so... the way the process currently works - and presumably will continue to work - is through overwrites. All results for an event are contained within an event submission file. The results in a new event submission file overwrite those of any previous submission file for the same event.

Malcolm Peacock
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Malcolm Peacock » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:19 pm

Angus French wrote: 1. Doesn't it address a *different* objective to the one which the Home Director perceives needs to be addressed? As I understand it, the Home Director is concerned not with enhancing existing systems but with providing something for leagues which either don't have an existing system or which have a primitive existing system - those which would struggle with monthly reporting of results?
Yes - that is their logic - but I wonder why those leagues can't use one of the existing systems ? rather than write a new one ?
Angus French wrote: 2. Rather than provide an API, a simpler solution would be to allow LMS systems to dump their grading submission files to an FTP server? I believe the Home Director suggested this possibility previously.
Wouldn't that require manual work to every month to verify the files (by putting them through the checker perhaps) and upload them to the grading system?

Ian Thompson
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:49 pm

Malcolm Peacock wrote:
Angus French wrote: 2. Rather than provide an API, a simpler solution would be to allow LMS systems to dump their grading submission files to an FTP server? I believe the Home Director suggested this possibility previously.
Wouldn't that require manual work to every month to verify the files (by putting them through the checker perhaps) and upload them to the grading system?
That's going to be a problem with any attempt to automate the processing of grading files, regardless of how it's done. The really difficult part would be automating what Richard Haddrell currently does with the output from the checker, which is deciding what to do with the checker's observations on player identification. It's easy for a person to decide that two people with slightly different spellings of their name are the same person, or not, but rather difficult to automate this and get it right all the time. It's also relatively easy for Richard to ask the grader to find out if Joe Bloggs who played in London is the same Joe Bloggs who played in Manchester a few years ago, but how would you automate that?

Nick Grey
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:48 pm

If ECF are going as far as requiring a common entrant system with source code surely they can go as far as being able to upload themselves 12 times a year. May have to increase resources at their end.
If the work was having to be carried out by all the leagues, tournaments, & events, & clubs at a particular time each month you may find missing items work, leave, unavailability, etc. The checker gives some options on possible matches but those could be automatically directed back to the clubs concerned if we have a common system.

Certain clubs or captains are not reporting results promptly, and accurately. It will be their players that may miss out. Some still submit manually but the more reliable ones have been passing away. Taking 3 or 4 to pick up their volunteer work.

Most systems have an automatic process but as an extra £X per submission.

It will help what grading system is wanted, how frequently, what are costs, benefits etc. But others are looking at that, & may need further engagement. Personally I'd like to see this cost of playing chess going downwards significantly because these are the type of savings looked for in the day job.

The ECF have limited resources. There is a large volunteer base but ECF ought not to put too much pressure in certain areas unless it has a solution.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:33 pm

If its going through an automated API mediated by a LMS of some sort at the leagues end (hosted by the ECF when required), you should be able to relatively minimise the amount of work needed at the ECF's end.

No misspelt club/player names, attaching ECF codes when known etc etc. I'm sure people would still find ways to break it :)

Michael Flatt
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:51 pm

I don't understand what is preventing the ECF from publishing live grades since Congresses happen throughout the year and their results are submitted within a month so as to be eligible for the Tradeswise Grand Prix. Thus, the ECF is continuously accumulating results but only making use of them every 6 months.

The fact that Leagues and Clubs only submit their results twice a year should not be a concern in developing the system to generate live grades. Once the system is up and running consideration could be given to include the results from season long competition.

There has been mention that a single hard working individual is rewriting parts of the grading system. It is not at all clear why this is necessary unless he has already started on the road to producing live grades.

Relying on a single individual to do all the donkey work doesn't seem to me to be very sensible. I would like to see a working party so that the load can be spread between a number of individuals with relevant skills and willingness to work together to improve the system.

Live grades don't have to be restricted to once a month. They could be published weekly or even daily. It only requires the will to do it.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:13 pm

The rewriting of chunks of the existing system sounds very much like the sort of maintanance you end up having to do with long lived software. Its often pretty painful, but not doing it can be worse long term.

If the code is simple enough to conceptually fit into one persons head then having one person do the coding is probably efficient time/effort wise. Explaining what you're doing with software/splitting up the work can take considerable lengths of time. Infamously it relatively often takes rather longer than you gain from the extra people!

The worry is resilience - stuff like what happens if that one person goes missing. At the least you'll want really good documentation of everything.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Carl Hibbard » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:51 pm

I believe it was FoxPro so easy for some of us but getting a bit old now.
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Michael Flatt
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:00 pm

Without any knowledge of what the grading software comprises and what state it is in it would be impossible to know what is required in terms of regular maintenance and the extent of the rewriting of code.

Perhaps, some form of technical audit needs to be undertaken to determine what the grading system software comprises and whether the coding is intelligible to anyone other than its author. For instance, which computer languages and database systems are used? Is there any form of documentation (user manual, programmer's manual).

If it is an individual's pet project, would he be willing for others to become involved and ultimately to lose control of it?

Relying on a single individual to do all the technical stuff isn't a very healthy situation. If he weren't available, for whatever reason, could others pick up the pieces without having to rewrite everything themselves?

Some form of collaboration can only improve the situation.

Michael Flatt
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Michael Flatt » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:57 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:I believe it was FoxPro so easy for some of us but getting a bit old now.
According to Wiki FoxPro is dead. It is no longer supported by Microsoft.

Wouldn't it be simplest to write a replacement system from scratch rather than translate the Foxpro application to a modern language?

Brian Towers
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Brian Towers » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:06 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:I believe it was FoxPro so easy for some of us but getting a bit old now.
Fascinating!

Visual FoxPro v9, I hope? I'm not sure earlier versions will run on recent versions of Windows.

Even though Microsoft discontinued support for VFP round about 2007 I believe you can still develop and run all the way up to Windows 10 although you will probably have to manually download and install MSXML 4.0 Core Services from the MS site.

Standard advice would be to migrate to a more modern development environment but, but, but ... VFP is a lovely little development environment and as long as you can still run the resulting 32-bit applications on current OSes, why not keep it? Fortunately SEP, as they say.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Nick Grey
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Re: The plans for the Grading System

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:48 pm

The average number of games played by a player last season in the Thames Valley League last season was <4. It will be the same this season.
I cannot see what advantage a monthly list brings other than with juniors, & also adults new (or coming back from a break).

New players being identified by clubs is an issue. Even if a club has implemented compulsory ECF membership they still seem to get spellings wrong & also provide little information to support estimates, & for juniors not providing date of birth.

Clubs not getting first names or surnames correct at input stage is an issue. Human error too by secretaries & graders.

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