Grading of Junior Tournaments

General discussions about grading.
Michael Flatt
Posts: 1230
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Michael Flatt » Thu May 25, 2017 4:10 pm

I've been considering whether or not it is worth sending my recent Megafinal for ECF grading.

With an entry of 200 players where very few are ECF rated, let alone ECF members, I calculate it would cost around £360 for the event, based on the current game levy.

With the new rates, effective 1st September 2017, the amount rockets to £750.

It doesn't take a lot thought. Why would any Junior Organiser wish to pay such exorbitant fees?

Perhaps, the Junior community should get together and manage their own grading system.

Ref: http://www.englishchess.org.uk/ecf-fees ... mber-2017/

NickFaulks
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by NickFaulks » Thu May 25, 2017 4:17 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:I've been considering whether or not it is worth sending my recent Megafinal for ECF grading.
Did the players believe their games would be graded? If so, I don't see how they can not be.

Roger Lancaster
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu May 25, 2017 4:21 pm

I was about to make the same point but Nick got there first! And, if I can make a general point which is in no way a criticism of Michael, it makes it more difficult for juniors to get graded in the first place if junior organisers run lots of events which are ungraded.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1780
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu May 25, 2017 4:34 pm

Michael,

Isn't it an exclusively junior event, for which I thought the following applied:

(4) Special arrangements

Special arrangements apply to games played between junior players under the age of 18 in exclusively junior events. Game Fee at a reduced rate of 60p per standardplay half result or 30p per rapidplay half result is payable in respect of such games. These rates override the pay to play arrangements for adult/mixed non-FIDE-rated congresses described in (2).

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1230
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Michael Flatt » Thu May 25, 2017 4:37 pm

The Competition Rules on the Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge make no mention or promise of grading.
Megafinal Rules: https://www.delanceyukschoolschesschall ... s_2017.pdf

Traditionally the Megafinals have not been graded, except in the rare case where one of the local organisers has chosen to do so, as Buckinghamshire did last year and again this year.

It should be recalled that it was uncertain whether the event would run at all. Fortunately, Alex and Sarah Longson came to the rescue and bought the rights to the event. They made a conscious effort not to raise entry fees this year.

If the event is to be graded then entry fees would have to rise £3.75 (plus VAT) per player.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1230
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Michael Flatt » Thu May 25, 2017 4:42 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:Michael,

Isn't it an exclusively junior event, for which I thought the following applied:

(4) Special arrangements

Special arrangements apply to games played between junior players under the age of 18 in exclusively junior events. Game Fee at a reduced rate of 60p per standardplay half result or 30p per rapidplay half result is payable in respect of such games. These rates override the pay to play arrangements for adult/mixed non-FIDE-rated congresses described in (2).
My £360 is based on the 30p per game per player.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by NickFaulks » Thu May 25, 2017 5:09 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:The Competition Rules on the Delancey UK Schools Chess Challenge make no mention or promise of grading.
It is now sounding to me as though the event cannot be graded, but we really need to know what the players believed at the time.

Whether the events should be graded in future is a more legitimate question. It would be nice if they were, but if the ECF continues to charge such prohibitive fees, then perhaps they cannot be. By contrast, FIDE rating would be free.

edit : Grading should cetainly be mentioned, one way or the other, in future seasons.

Michael Flatt
Posts: 1230
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Michael Flatt » Thu May 25, 2017 5:19 pm

As the ECF doesn't seem to think it necessary to for Juniors to become graded at a reasonable cost, doesn't the Market demand an alternative supplier of grading services?

Pehaps, my Junior Association should affiliate to Yorkshire and adopt Yorkshire grades!

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 17926
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 25, 2017 5:32 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:As the ECF doesn't seem to think it necessary to for Juniors to become graded at a reasonable cost, doesn't the Market demand an alternative supplier of grading services?
The ECF believes that all junior players should become individual ECF members and doesn't accept that the expense of this may discourage some organisers from having anything to do with the ECF, or some players from entering graded events. It gives membership away for nothing, but for the first year only. That may or may not be of any use.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 2830
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Thu May 25, 2017 5:32 pm

This is not a new issue - the policy always was not to grade the games. For the earlier stages of the competition, this might make sense, as most of the players probably never played seriously elsewhere. In the later stages, there are probably a number of graded players, and they might expect it to be graded (if they haven't read the rules!)

It's possible in previous years that these events were graded free of course.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1780
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu May 25, 2017 5:49 pm

Perhaps we should be looking at the possibility of allowing in junior events that direct members playing each other have their games submitted for grading but not others. I don't see that this would have a dramatic effect on ECF finances, and might even encourage membership - juniors (like adults) would enjoy the distinction of having a grade. I have never understood the determination to grade 'all or none' (except as a monopoly ruse). The idea that it prevents manipulation is clearly not valid as the gradeable games can be determined before they are played. It would not, of course, be appropriate to allow new members to submit games played before they took out membership.

NickFaulks
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by NickFaulks » Thu May 25, 2017 5:55 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:Pehaps, my Junior Association should affiliate to Yorkshire and adopt Yorkshire grades!
If Yorkshire could then affiliate to FIDE all of your problems would be solved.

John Upham
Posts: 4264
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:29 am
Location: Cove, Hampshire, England.
Contact:

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by John Upham » Thu May 25, 2017 6:33 pm

See http://www.yorkshireparty.org.uk/ for further detail of the FIDE / Yorkshire alliance.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
Twitter: @BritishChessNew
Facebook: facebook.com/groups/britishchess :D

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8769
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu May 25, 2017 6:45 pm

I've sent in all of the Warwickshire and Worcestershire Megafinals for grading, and I expect it will cost me somewhere in the region of £0.

In the case of Warwickshire, we've run several junior events throughout the year, so most of our players were already Silver Members because that was a condition of entry. Where the players had never been members before, we made them Silver members under the Free Junior Silver membership route. For the Megafinals, most of the entrants were members already, and those who weren't and hadn't been, we again made Junior Silver members for free.

I arranged with the UKCC in advance that there should be an explanation of this on the online entry when entering the Megafinals I was organising; saying that the data would be used to make the children ECF members.

So I've run various junior-only tournaments this year, and according to my records:-
Coventry last October, 80 players, 80 members
Solihull last November, 136 players, 136 members
Birmingham in February, 120 players, 120 members
Warwick in April, 73 players, 73 members
Megafinal in May, 252 players, 252 members
Kenilworth in June, 26 players and counting, 26 members

So I'm not sure I understand what the problem is?
Last edited by Alex Holowczak on Thu May 25, 2017 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nick Grey
Posts: 1113
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Grading of Junior Tournaments

Post by Nick Grey » Thu May 25, 2017 7:07 pm

Looks like the organiser failed to sign them up for the free membership.
Why not sort this out in advance or even after with the challenge?
I thought there were new arrangements which we hope to be successful.

Post Reply