To grade or not to grade

General discussions about grading.
Andy McAtear
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Andy McAtear » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:29 pm

Player A, whilst perhaps not a baddy, was not thought of too highly after his team mates learned that he cost them the match by arriving late :x

Mick Norris
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:33 pm

Andy McAtear wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:55 pm
Having recently taken over as Cumbria's grading officer, I'm unsure as to whether or not this game should be sent for grading:

Scenario: Player A arrives 45 minutes late for an evening match, his clock was started at 7 pm (the official start time). Player B's captain asks "isn't there a rule whereby a player defaults after 30 minutes?" but no one is certain of this. However, as player A has turned up, player B agrees to play the game, having been assured that, if there is such a rule in the constitution, he will win by default anyway. Despite having half the time of his opponent, player A wins the game with seconds to spare. Having got home and read through the constitution,where indeed there is such a rule, player A's team captain reports the result to the league controller as a default in favour of player B.

My question is this, should the game be submitted for grading purposes?

........Andy.
We have a rule in the Manchester League to cover this kind of issue
The games of all players who are ineligible under these rules shall be submitted for grading but for all MCF purposes shall be scored to their opponents
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Andy McAtear
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Andy McAtear » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:06 pm

Thanks Mick,
I might propose such a rule at Cumbria's next AGM. There shouldn't be any ambiguity in situations like this.

E Michael White
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by E Michael White » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:24 pm

For a game to be ECF SP graded. each player has to have at least 60 mins. So If a player is 45 mins late for a 3 hour session you would have to give each payer approx. 67 mins .,

Alex Holowczak
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:07 pm

Andy McAtear wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:55 pm
My question is this, should the game be submitted for grading purposes?
Why not e-mail the ECF, if you haven't already? You might just get a definitive answer from him, rather than lots of people giving you their opinion.

http://www.englishchess.org.uk/ask-the-directors/

Brian Valentine
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Brian Valentine » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:16 pm

The situation is thus.

The grader should seek advice from higher authority. If the organiser/arbiter/league committee are satisfied that a game has been played under ECF tournament rules, then they can instruct the grader to submit the result for grading. It will then be graded.

The "organisers" should take into account all the good points made or alluded to above. The central grading team have to trust the grader to do their job within our guidelines published on the website. We do not have the resources to do otherwise.

Brian Valentine
Manager of ECF grading.

Andy McAtear
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Andy McAtear » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:44 pm

Thanks Brian,
I put the question to our league controller and our chess association president but one was for and one against. I didn't really want to bother Matthew Carr with it but perhaps I should. I thought I might be convinced by some of the replies on this forum. There may be a 'hard and fast' rule but I couldn't find one in the graders guide. My wife is quite amused by the fact that I'm making so much effort to come to a correct decision :D However, I'm a bit of a perfectionist and would hate to make a wrong decision. In my opinion, the game should be graded but my opinion is my opinion and not necessarily the right one. This is the main reason why I sought other opinions and it seems many have an opinion on the subject but it seems to be about 50/50 for and against. I'd like to thank everyone for their opinions but I think, like you say Brian, I should just ask the grading administrator.

Angus French
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Angus French » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:47 pm

My view FWIW:
- if the players consent to play then the game should be graded;
- the captains of the players - if not the players themselves - really ought to know the rules. Thus player B should have the choice: claim the game and don't play it else don't claim the game and play it. Alternatively, player B could say: sorry, I'm going to claim the game but I'll offer you a graded/ungraded 'friendly' (likely with clock times adjusted);
- it might be an idea to have something in the rules to say that a copy of the rules should be available at the playing venue.

Andy McAtear
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Andy McAtear » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:32 pm

Thanks Angus,
Good point and I have a confession to make....I was one of the captains...We usually play afternoon matches (2 hrs all-the-moves) and I knew that there was a rule whereby a player defaults if he isn't present after 1 hour. However, although the other team captain asked "isn't there a rule whereby a player defaults after 30 minutes?" I had to reply that I wasn't sure of the default time for 90 minute games and said I'd check the constitution when I got home after the match. At the time, I figured that if it's an hour for a two hour match then it should be 45 minutes for a 90 minute match but apparently, this is not the case. The reason for his late arrival, though irrelevant, was because he was under the assumption that he was being picked up by another member of the team, obviously forgetting that he'd told the driver that he would make his own way to the match. One of our other members, who happened to be at the club, eventually got him on his mobile and jumped in his car to get him (8 mile round trip). When he arrived I mentioned to him and his opponent that the game might yet be defaulted anyway but, as of yet, no one was sure. To be honest, I don't think his opponent really wanted to play. The reason I say this is that he later told me that this is about the 3rd or 4th time he has been in the same situation and had lost all of them despite his time advantage. So, perhaps, psychologically, he was disadvantaged. I think that my conversation with him, after the game, is what put me in two minds as to whether or not I should grade the game.
I'd like to say thanks to everyone who expressed an opinion.

Mike Truran
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Mike Truran » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:00 pm

Sounds like Brian's advice is best - have the grader ask the league committee to make the decision and submit accordingly. The ECF central grading team can hardly be expected to make a decision from a position of zero knowledge of the circumstances involved or the local rules involved.

Nick Grey
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:08 pm

A game with a default is not graded in ECF grading rules.

A player arriving late may incur a lesser penalty under competition rules than not turning up at all.

If a game is played then providing it meets the grading requirements it should be graded.

I have been in the position where a substitute player refused to play with a handicapped time limit because of not wanting to effect his grading. But quite happy to keep his opponent occupied with 5 minute chess for the end of the night. This was not what his opponent wanted to do so he sat around for the rest of the session because of being the car driver for the team. He then made a later complaint to the league.

I believe defaults are happening more frequently in London and surrounding areas because of traffic or a very poor public transport situation. They will also occur more frequently if the home team starts the clocks on time.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by LawrenceCooper » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:52 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:08 pm
I believe defaults are happening more frequently in London and surrounding areas because of traffic or a very poor public transport situation. They will also occur more frequently if the home team starts the clocks on time.
Those who travel via the M6 don't have it easy either :oops:

Alex Holowczak
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:50 pm

Nick Grey wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:08 pm
I believe defaults are happening more frequently in London and surrounding areas because of traffic or a very poor public transport situation.
The good folk of Lincolnshire are no doubt shedding a tear at how poor public transport is in London for them to get to league games.

Mick Norris
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by Mick Norris » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:24 am

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:52 pm
Nick Grey wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:08 pm
I believe defaults are happening more frequently in London and surrounding areas because of traffic or a very poor public transport situation. They will also occur more frequently if the home team starts the clocks on time.
Those who travel via the M6 don't have it easy either :oops:
The deadliest opening of them all - the M6 gambit

the M60 can be a nightmare round Manchester too, but the reality is that the roads are overcrowded in lots of places (most of whom, unlike London, haven't had lots of money spent on public transport)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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David Shepherd
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Re: To grade or not to grade

Post by David Shepherd » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:35 pm

One approach could be to ask the players if they were both happy for it to be graded.

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