New Grade/Age Categories

General discussions about grading.
David Robertson
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New Grade/Age Categories

Post by David Robertson » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:40 pm

There are now new - new to me, at least - 'top player' age categories on the ECF grading site.

The oldest category used to be 70+, with a filter to select those qualified. Now the categories have been extended to embrace filters for 75+ and 80+

Many great names, mostly amateur untitled players, feature on the most senior lists - veterans still active, still playing. Good for them

But my attention was caught by the 80+ list. Over 100 graded eighty year olds are listed there. That's 1% of our community still giving it their best. Superb!!

Nigel White
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Nigel White » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 pm

I think that the age information in grading site should be treated with caution. I know from my club that at least a couple of over 80s should be shown, but are not, whereas the one person who is there will be very amused to find that he is over 80.

David Sedgwick
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:24 pm

Nigel White wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:50 pm
I think that the age information in grading site should be treated with caution. I know from my club that at least a couple of over 80s should be shown, but are not, whereas the one person who is there will be very amused to find that he is over 80.
Surely one of the reasons for publishing the lists is to identify errors of this kind?

I hope that your club will contact the ECF and point out the mistakes.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Michael Farthing » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:42 pm

..having first checked, I hope, that the unlisted over 80s are happy to be identified

Nick Grey
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:46 pm

I will say that our number 11, the youthful Ken Inwood is currently playing at the same strength as our top 2.
When you get a few +90s in a season (that is winning v someone 40 points or more higher) as well as drawing against stronger players and also beating them it is likely to be a higher jump on the next list. Ken gets a lot of pleasure from winning a lost position with a swindle, as a technical agreed draw, or just outplaying those that are supposedly stronger than him.

He is playing at around the same strength when Kingston won the Surrey Trophy and Alexander Cup in our centenary season 1975. I expect he will win or draw in tomorrow's match (he may well have been playing tonight as well). I'm looking forward to tea/coffee with our opponents tomorrow however old or young they are.

All this without a computer, and using Ken's chess experience since 1948.

We ought to celebrate these players, especially our top female 80+ player, and when I played her a few years ago I was under the impression she was on a par with all the other female players that I have played over the past 15 or so years.

I have a lot of time for all the seniors playing chess. I'm one too.

Angus French
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Angus French » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:30 am

Some stats from the January 2018 master list:
Jan2018GradingStats.png
Jan2018GradingStats.png (31.4 KiB) Viewed 1710 times
Note: I defined a Grade as being Category A-E and not Category F which arguably should also be included. This affects the stats in columns 2 and 3 and younger players - aged 0-9 and 10-19 - and players of an unknown age in particular. That said, column 4 in comparison with column 3 does show that a large number of players aged 0-19 and of unknown age played relatively few games.
Last edited by Angus French on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:26 pm

Where have these numbers come from Angus?
Supposedly player ages are only collected for juniors and seniors.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:01 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:26 pm
Supposedly player ages are only collected for juniors and seniors.
The ECF and the BCF before it have been collecting dates of birth for thirty years or more. Probably more as it knew who the juniors were getting on for fifty years ago.

Angus French
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Angus French » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:08 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:26 pm
Where have these numbers come from Angus?
Supposedly player ages are only collected for juniors and seniors.
Stats are from the January 2018 master list which is available to results officers.

DOBs are needed for grade calculations for juniors and are useful for checking eligibility for age-limited events. Provision of DOBs in grading submissions is also encouraged to assist with player identification.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:41 pm

Angus French wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:08 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:26 pm
Where have these numbers come from Angus?
Supposedly player ages are only collected for juniors and seniors.
Stats are from the January 2018 master list which is available to results officers.

DOBs are needed for grade calculations for juniors and are useful for checking eligibility for age-limited events. Provision of DOBs in grading submissions is also encouraged to assist with player identification.
Thanks Angus.
I have sent an Email requesting that if my date of birth is held it should be removed.

David Robertson
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by David Robertson » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:18 pm

I think Angus has done a good thing here. Not sure I've seen this data before. It's the kind of data that should inform ECF's strategic thinking - though I see scant evidence of that. If I had more time, I'd offer up some tentative analysis. But for now, I'll offer this:

* 50% of chess, and at least 70% of adult chess, is being played by people aged 50+
* the fall-off among those aged 20+ is steep, accelerating, and alarming (but predictable)
* the apparent buoyancy of activity among those 10-19 likely belies a steep falling-off from 14-19
* the so-called 'Fischer boom', better called the Grammar School boom, bulge continues to edge its way towards the Grim Reaper
Last edited by David Robertson on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:23 pm

David Robertson wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:18 pm
Not sure I've seen this data before.
It's been presented before. In the days when there was a printed grading list, there was an analysis most years. Twenty years ago, the peak age ranges were 20 years younger.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:39 pm

David Robertson wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:18 pm
I think Angus has done a good thing here. Not sure I've seen this data before. It's the kind of data that should inform ECF's strategic thinking - though I see scant evidence of that. If I had more time, I'd offer up some tentative analysis. But for now, I'll offer this:

* 50% of chess is being played by people aged 50+
* the fall-off among those aged 20+ is steep, accelerating, and alarming (but predictable)
* the apparent buoyancy of activity among those 10-19 likely belies a steep falling-off from 14-19
* the so-called 'Fischer boom', better called the Grammar School boom, bulge continues to edge its way towards the Grim Reaper
The ECF (and the 4NCL) has this and more data besides.

In my 4NCL hat, I've been tracking the dates of birth of players in 4NCL Congresses for a while now.

There are a few highlights from that and other research:
- The average age of people who enter varies by the region we're holding the 4NCL Congress in. For example, the mean age of players who enter the congresses in Yorkshire is higher than the south or the midlands. The two 4NCL Congresses in the south had a mean of about 40. The ones in Yorkshire edge near 50, and always score badly in junior participation relative to elsewhere. Given Yorkshire's self-confessed inability to develop junior players, this is perhaps not so surprising. The median is always higher than the mean in the north, again suggesting the data is skewed in favour of the older age groups.
- If we compare the 4NCL Congresses of similar sizes in terms of numbers of entries and location, the mean age of participants is increasing by approximately 1 year per year.
- In terms of players aged 12-18, looking at players with a standardplay grade, almost 25% of them are female, up from 6% five years ago. This is very much a silver lining though: For females aged 18+, that drops to 3%; and that includes Gibraltar and Isle of Man, and so it includes many foreign females who only play in those events. This makes 3% higher than it should be.
- Using the FIDE-rating list as a metric, comparing the 100th-highest rated active female player in different countries is interesting. Germany is 2005. France is 1886. Spain is 1851. Greece is 1625. Italy is 1503. Netherlands is 1351. England? Well, England doesn't even have 100 rated female players...

Brian Towers
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by Brian Towers » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:30 am

Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:41 pm
I have sent an Email requesting that if my date of birth is held it should be removed.
I suggest your next email/letter should be to FIDE.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

NickFaulks
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Re: New Grade/Age Categories

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:30 am
I suggest your next email/letter should be to FIDE.
Date of birth is required information, but only the year is published and it can be hidden from the world on request.

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