World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Information and discussion on all matters relating to Seniors Chess.
NickFaulks
Posts: 4385
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:32 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:39 pm
That is quite an achievement! Was it an accidental letting go of the queen perhaps?
You might have thought his opponent would permit a late call of j'adoube. Perhaps an eagle-eyed arbiter disallowed that.

LawrenceCooper
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:13 am

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by LawrenceCooper » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:42 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:32 pm
Michael Farthing wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:39 pm
That is quite an achievement! Was it an accidental letting go of the queen perhaps?
You might have thought his opponent would permit a late call of j'adoube. Perhaps an eagle-eyed arbiter disallowed that.
"The black player fumbled his queen and dropped it on b5. Contact with it was lost. Guy playing white insisted the move had been made. Obviously the intended move was ...Qa5 but that was not made... Black resigned in disgust." taken from a Facebook thread about it.

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3689
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:51 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:39 pm
That is quite an achievement! Was it an accidental letting go of the queen perhaps?
Looks most likely; he probably intended to play 3...Qa5 and fell one square short.

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 2539
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:02 pm

Sounds a bit harsh on the face of it, but rules are rules and those about touching and letting go of a piece especially so.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Mike Truran
Posts: 2345
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm
Contact:

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Mike Truran » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:59 pm

Sorry Matt - can't can't agree with that. If so, why are we bothering to play chess at all? Do we really want to win a game just because our opponent fumbles his queen? I know I wouldn't.

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 2539
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:10 am

At least, its arguably no worse than winning because somebody's mobile phone goes off.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Mike Truran
Posts: 2345
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm
Contact:

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Mike Truran » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:19 am

Sorry Matt. Still can't agree with that. Why are we bothering to play over the board chess if we just want to win because our opponent inadvertently drops his piece on the board before executing his move?

NickFaulks
Posts: 4385
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:47 am

I would certainly try to allow my opponent to play the move he obviously thought he was playing. Of course, a watching arbiter might then default the pair of us.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8456
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:14 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:02 pm
Sounds a bit harsh on the face of it, but rules are rules and those about touching and letting go of a piece especially so.
I think that's wrong. From reports, it seems that everyone accepts he dropped the piece, perhaps even the opponent. I wouldn't rule that he had to play Qb5, and if the other player wanted to appeal the decision, good luck to him.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1660
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:21 pm

I don't know about dropping the piece, but I can understand some anger if he dropped the opponent.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8456
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:51 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:21 pm
I don't know about dropping the piece, but I can understand some anger if he dropped the opponent.
:lol:

Craig Pritchett
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Craig Pritchett » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:03 pm

Interesting this. I'm staying at the same small guest house as Reprintsev, who told me that he placed his queen a bit awkwardly (and I presume hardly intentionally) on the join between the two squares b5 and a5. It is, of course, ridiculous to even entertain the idea that he didn't mean anything other than to play the 'standard' ...Qa5, not least because he has the Scandinavian in his regular repertoire.

I didn't see the incident. Reprintsev added that he then began to adjust various of his pawns and pieces which weren't terribly well-placed (as often happens at the start of games, including at this event) and his opponent objected 'highly emotionally' when he adjusted his queen to a5.

I have to say that, in my view, most players, including the likes of virtually all of the elite, would not have claimed that the move (to what White claimed to be clearly b5 and not a5) should stand, even if their opponent had inadvertently but clearly placed the queen on b5 at such an early stage in a game and agree with Mike Truran on this. I certainly wouldn't, though I might suggest to my opponent that he take care with his piece placement for the rest of the game.

I also wonder whether Reprintsev's opponent himself acted fully in accord with the spirit of the game; he does appear to have been especially vehement in his view that Black had transgressed the rules of chess 100%. But had he? I'm not an expert on the rules but I believe at least that the touch move rules, for example, are couched in language that allows arbiters discretion to allow for obvious 'accident' (strongly arguable in this case at the very least) and also for 'intent' (equally no real intention on Black's part here).

An arbiter's view would be of interest here. But I still don't think that true sports people (the vast majority of chess players, in my view, including at the very top of the game) would accept an arbiter's suggestion that the ridiculous move 3...Qb5 should be 'enforced'. As it, however, clearly annoyed his opponent, making him so incensed as to wish the move to stand, perhaps a time penalty of say 10 minutes and a warning about taking more care in piece placement against Reprintsev would have been a more measured and appropriate judgement.

Speaking to Reprintsev tonight about the game (played yesterday), he seemed not too unhappy to have accepted the judgement, which caused his immediate resignation, although he didn't seem certain that he had really transgressed. My first thought was that his opponent was at fault by making such a fuss about the matter and that a good arbiter would have sorted matters out and calmed him down, perhaps along the lines I've suggested above.

Barry Sandercock
Posts: 1322
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:52 am

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Barry Sandercock » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:56 am

I think the opponent was quite wrong in claiming the game, as it was completely obvious that Qa5 was the intended move in this well known opening variation. He should have adjusted the Queen to a5 and kept quiet and played on.

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8456
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:08 pm

Craig Pritchett wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:03 pm
Interesting this. I'm staying at the same small guest house as Reprintsev, who told me that he placed his queen a bit awkwardly (and I presume hardly intentionally) on the join between the two squares b5 and a5. It is, of course, ridiculous to even entertain the idea that he didn't mean anything other than to play the 'standard' ...Qa5, not least because he has the Scandinavian in his regular repertoire.

[...]

An arbiter's view would be of interest here.
The game was being played on a liveboard. The liveboard is capable of registering whether or not the piece was grounded on the board. If a Queen went from d5-a5, it will show b5 if the piece came into contact with the board on b5. If the software showed the Queen moved from d5 to a5, but something registered on b5, then this evidence may be useful. Even then, just because it was grounded on the board, his hand might have been holding it still, but it's a piece of evidence you might take into consideration when making a decision. However, often at official ECU/FIDE events, for some reason, the arbiters don't have liveboard access. You'll know better than me, given you're at the event, whether or not the arbiters have recourse to the liveboards. But even then, I doubt many arbiters would think to look for that unless they're familiar with the software.

"I moved it to a5". "No, you moved it to b5." It all sounds more like a local junior tournament to me, rather than the World Senior Championships. In such junior events, I'd expect the volunteer (it wouldn't be an arbiter, at least in England) to give the benefit of the doubt to the person who moved the piece, but to keep an eye/make a note of it in case it happens again; and report it on to the arbiter/person in charge just so they're aware. This is in much the same way that they would normally handle touch move disputes, although of course this isn't a touch move dispute. I'm not sure that's terribly helpful or definitive, but it's about all I've got to compare it with. :(

Craig Pritchett
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:54 pm

Re: World Senior Championships, Nov. 2017 Acqui Terme

Post by Craig Pritchett » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:07 am

Very quickly ... Reprintsev didn't remonstrate in the slightest. All the emotion came from his opponent. Reprintsev told me he just felt shocked by his opponent's vehement insistence and surprised that any strong titled player would have reacted that way, so he just appears to have more or less given the guy the point without even bothering to argue about it.

The arbiter didn't actually get involved at all, it seems, merely accepting the result agreed and getting the signed score sheets.

The whole episode is frankly bizarre. Reprintsev is not a demonstrative person; an entirely fair and gentlemanly player, he is almost sporting to a fault and well-respected by everyone.

By the way he leads the tournament, tied on 5/6 at the rest day today. He also won last night's blitz tournament.

Post Reply