e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Details of upcoming UK events, please provide working links if possible.
Ian Thompson
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:59 pm

Sean Hewitt wrote:Actually, there is no rule against having an MP3 on. An arbiter would have known that but a spectator sticking his nose it probably wouldn't.
Assuming the Sheffield event you're talking about is the British Championships I think you're wrong. One of the congress conditions was "Players must not ... use any form of electronic storage, communication or computing device." An MP3 player is an electronic storage device.

David Sedgwick
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:34 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:Actually, there is no rule against having an MP3 on. An arbiter would have known that but a spectator sticking his nose it probably wouldn't.
Assuming the Sheffield event you're talking about is the British Championships I think you're wrong. One of the congress conditions was "Players must not ... use any form of electronic storage, communication or computing device." An MP3 player is an electronic storage device.
I don't want to comment on the specific regulations for the British Championships at Sheffield, still less on what may or may not have happened there.

On the Laws of Chess themselves, Sean is indeed correct that while the use of communication devices is prohibited, this does not automatically apply to other forms of electronic device.

However, my view is that this makes life very difficult for arbiters. I have to confess that I scarcely know what an MP3 player is, let alone exactly what it can or cannot do. I would prefer the Laws to state that all electronic devices must be completely switched off, except with the permission of the arbiter.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:51 am

Ian Thompson wrote:Assuming the Sheffield event you're talking about is the British Championships I think you're wrong. One of the congress conditions was "Players must not ... use any form of electronic storage, communication or computing device." An MP3 player is an electronic storage device.
Ian - the assertion put was that an MP3 player is a communication device. I was stating that it clearly not and as such are not treated in the same way as devices such as mobile phones. I see that David S concurs.

As Roger says, the law covers the use of other electronic devices by giving some discretion to arbiters, particularly where the device could be distracting to an opponent. It's also perfectly reasonable for an event organiser to ban their use such as in the circumstances such as you describe above.

However, the condition you highlighted above would not have applied to me - I wasn't playing!

Sean Hewitt
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:58 am

Mark Josse wrote:Going back to the hotel room debate i am sorry to hear that people had rooms cancelled but as has been posted if you book outside of the e2e4 provisions then there is always a possibility that things could go wrong. I have played in many of the events run by Sean and on each occasion i have booked outside of the e2e4 website but still been lucky enough to claim a good chess discount,. Most of the hotels are more than happy to extend the e2e4 discount to a private agreement but you have to accept you are on your own in your dealings with them I only had one problem some years ago at Brighton and the Hotel sorted out alternative accommodation and i resolved the problem with them directly. I know it is an awful experience to have a room cancelled at short notice but Sean has worked really hard on running events in the UK and okay there seems to have been some problems with the Hotel this time round but i would like to point to the track record of e2e4 which is excellent .
Many promising young players have the opportunity to seek norms and titles as a result of these events and whatever the problems with regards this hotel and some of the booking lets not forget how much e2e4 chess has enhanced tournament chess.
Keep up the good work Sean !
Thanks Mark! The feedback at the event was superb and even those few of us who did have to move hotels had a good time. A scenic drive through the excellent Peak District countryside, followed by a really nice meal and being free it went down very well indeed.

The funniest thing was in the morning when I spoke to Ian Stephens who had also moved to Shrigley Hall. He said that the otel had been great and the dinner was lovely. He had even had a suite at the hotel. I said "wow" and he said "Yes, only an extra £5. I had the black forest gateaux".

Alex McFarlane
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Alex McFarlane » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:52 am

There are people who are accused of being able to start a fight in an empty house. I seem to have got involved in a 'discussion' without being anywhere near.

What is a 'communication device'? It is questions like this that keep lawyers in mansions. I believe that you could successfully argue that a book is a communication device. In its widest interpretation any object which passes on information is a communication device. Many assume communication is a two way processes but that needn't be so. I taught in an inner city school where much of my communication was a one way system!

As Roger says the main problem with an MP3 player is that you do not know what information it contains and it could be giving advice. It would be very easy to have a lot of opening theory on one.

As David implies, it is not always easy to differentiate between one of these devices and a phone from any distance. Phones being on are clearly banned. The situation with MP3 players is less clear. I would certainly not allow a player to have one on during a game. The situation with spectators is much less clear. We seldom have a problem of noise from these things nowadays unlike the "tschhhh, tschhh" noises escaping from early headphones. Therefore I seldom pull up spectators sitting round a playing area waiting on partner or child to finish from listening to an MP3 or reading from a Kindle. However, when the spectator is hovering near a board the matter becomes much more complicated.

In these circumstances an arbiter can either wait until a player complains and treat the device as a distraction or can take action before a situation develops.

I agree totally with David that the Laws need to be reviewed on this point. Technology is overtaking matters. As I indicated elsewhere, the multipurpose nature of many devices creates headaches for the arbiter.

Andrew Camp
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Andrew Camp » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:17 am

It's good here, isn't it?
Chairman of North Wales Junior Chess Association
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E Michael White
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by E Michael White » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:27 am

Alex McFarlane wrote: I would certainly not allow a player to have one on during a game.
Indeed. It would be madness to allow a player to use an MP3 during a game. Many of these come with radios built in and its not difficult to hijack FM frequencies over short distances. Wireless downloads could also be exploited.
David Sedgwick wrote: I would prefer the Laws to state that all electronic devices must be completely switched off, except with the permission of the arbiter.
Few arbiters would be able to make a worthwhile technical evaluation, so discretion given to arbiters would be useless and undesirable. Clearly deaf players would need their usual hearing aids but beyond that arbiters should have no leeway.

Paul Cooksey

Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:02 am

Andrew Camp wrote:It's good here, isn't it?
Yes :)

Leaving aside the incident at Sheffield, which I have no knowledge of, the rules on electronic devices are quite interesting. I suppose the word communication is in the regulations to exclude medically necessary devices. Michael gives one example, a pacemaker is perhaps even clearer. But sensibly drafted, I agree a rule excluding even innocent devices makes sense. It is easy enough to adapt devices to receive a signal.

For me, communication with players is the key issue rather than electronics. I suspect the blurring is because electronics are the obvious way for a professional player to cheat. But not the only way, as Karpov-Korchnoi explored in detail.

At lower levels there are lots more ways to assist a player. For example, I'd like to think I contain more opening information than one of Mike Basman's tapes. (Such as "Don't play the Grob, it's rubbish"). But so long as I am neither distracting the players or communicating with them, I'd allow me to spectate.

I even have some sympathy with the texting mum, so long as she is looking bored in the corner, rather than engaging in Danailov style semaphore.

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Peter D Williams
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Peter D Williams » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:05 am

Mark Josse wrote:Going back to the hotel room debate i am sorry to hear that people had rooms cancelled but as has been posted if you book outside of the e2e4 provisions then there is always a possibility that things could go wrong. I have played in many of the events run by Sean and on each occasion i have booked outside of the e2e4 website but still been lucky enough to claim a good chess discount,. Most of the hotels are more than happy to extend the e2e4 discount to a private agreement but you have to accept you are on your own in your dealings with them I only had one problem some years ago at Brighton and the Hotel sorted out alternative accommodation and i resolved the problem with them directly. I know it is an awful experience to have a room cancelled at short notice but Sean has worked really hard on running events in the UK and okay there seems to have been some problems with the Hotel this time round but i would like to point to the track record of e2e4 which is excellent .
Many promising young players have the opportunity to seek norms and titles as a result of these events and whatever the problems with regards this hotel and some of the booking lets not forget how much e2e4 chess has enhanced tournament chess.
Keep up the good work Sean !
I agree with most of what you say. I have never said that Sean does not work hard on running these events.It was just quite annoying to be told 2 days before event sorry no room! That was the problem and the hotel may have know much early that it was over booked yet kept us in the dark! I am still looking into what went wrong.

I agree e2 e4 do give opportunity for promising young players to get norms or just improve.

I think its good for Sean to get feedback from all players some will be good some not that way he can think about if there are any ways he can improve his events. I would like to see on Web page you must book though us to be sure of a room hopfully people now know this but it woud still be good to put it up on web site.

One good thing come out of it Carol cooked duck in plum on sunday and very nice it was to!
when you are successful many losers bark at you.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:18 am

Paul Cooksey wrote: I suppose the word communication is in the regulations to exclude medically necessary devices.
Cameras too, are now electronic devices. The "old" rules allowing photography but barring flash after the first ten minutes are still in place. But as what does a mobile phone or tablet computer being used to take photographs count? For that matter the digital clock, the sensory board and the electronic scoresheet are electronic devices, so a more general rule requires careful wording.
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

David Sedgwick
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:19 am

E Michael White wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote: I would prefer the Laws to state that all electronic devices must be completely switched off, except with the permission of the arbiter.
Few arbiters would be able to make a worthwhile technical evaluation, so discretion given to arbiters would be useless and undesirable. Clearly deaf players would need their usual hearing aids but beyond that arbiters should have no leeway.
Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting extending the discretion beyond that which already applies to mobile phones, etc. Whether arbiters should have such discretion is a distinct issue, albeit not entirely unrelated. You have of course said previously that in your opinion giving discretion to arbiters is not in general a good idea.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:26 am

Paul Cooksey wrote: I even have some sympathy with the texting mum, so long as she is looking bored in the corner, rather than engaging in Danailov style semaphore.
<Moderator Hat>
I think I'll let this one stand, because the relevant accusations are already in the public domain (a search on "Danailov signalling" produces a link to said story on ChessBase).
</Moderator Hat>

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David Shepherd
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by David Shepherd » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:53 am

I think the area of electronic devices is a very tough area. For example I suspect even a watch could be modified to receive an electronic signal with a move on it. How often have watches been turned off for events?

Alan Walton
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Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:42 am

Can somebody move all this discussion around electronic devices, it has nothing to do with the event at Buxton

People may get the wrong impression of the tournament, which was excellent run despite the unforseen difficulties encountered

Ray Sayers

Re: e2e4 Buxton Congress : 29 June - 1 July 2012

Post by Ray Sayers » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:43 am

David Shepherd wrote:I think the area of electronic devices is a very tough area. For example I suspect even a watch could be modified to receive an electronic signal with a move on it. How often have watches been turned off for events?
A good point well made. To be honest, to a large extent we have to rely on player honesty. I mean, who knows if someone has the main line Dragon theory written in market pen on their left thigh? A joke, but you know what I mean. The day it becomes commonplace for players to let computers choose their moves is the day we may as well just pack up and go home. I've always considered the fun of chess to be a combination of the sporting, pyschology, struggle and that sort of almost 'Zen-like' place you go where you can lose yourself in another world for hours. It seems cheats are also cheating themselves out of the enjoyment of playing the game.

Of course, sadly, cheats probably don't care!

Edit: sorry, Alam, I was probably typing all this as you were typing!

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