National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

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Jonathan Rogers
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:09 pm

It's excruciating, isn't it? The fact that the 4NCL prospers, and that the Open NCC became terminally ill several years ago, precisely because the 4NCL is free from such regulations, is simply one that no Home Director of the ECF wants to recognise.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:12 pm

John Upham wrote:I am informed that a club is not permitted to enter a team unless it has its own venue.

This would appear to be some kind of anti-4NCL stance but also a stance against anyone who might like to pull a team together.
It's very definitely an anti 4NCL stance as it says so in the eligibility rules.
National Club rules wrote:1. Teams of 4 players from any club that participates in an ECF-affiliated league, or a league organised by an ECF-affiliated county, are eligible to compete in any section of the competition. Players may play in different sections in the competition, so long as they do not play in different sections of the competition in the same round.

2. Players are eligible to play for a club if they are ECF members, and they fulfil one of these criteria:

They have played at least one game for the club in an ECF-graded team competition either in this season or the season that immediately precedes it.
They have played at least one game in an ECF-graded club internal competition at that club either in this season or the season that immediately precedes it.

For the purposes of this rule, 4NCL squads do not count as a club.
Nothing directly about venues, so a club whose only activity was playing in the London League without a home venue or club night would qualify.

J T Melsom
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:14 pm

John, you have criticised the competition rules for seeking to define a club, but not offered an alternative definition. Can you help us out or are you just sniping from the side-lines.

Jonathan, the 4NCL rules are designed for the 4NCL, and suit that event A club event with no definition of club where carloads of 4 people could constitute a club, might be more popular but wouldn't be a club event. There are rules in the county championship because again it is a competition between counties not just assembled teams.

Its not anti 4NCL - its simply an event with different rules.

Ian Thompson
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:24 pm

John Upham wrote:I am informed that a club is not permitted to enter a team unless it has its own venue.
That might rule out some bona fide clubs in the London League who play all their home matches at Golden Lane, e.g. Mushrooms.

John Upham
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by John Upham » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:48 pm

J T Melsom wrote:John, you have criticised the competition rules for seeking to define a club, but not offered an alternative definition. Can you help us out or are you just sniping from the side-lines.
I am not sniping. I was going to fund a BCM team but am no longer.

My definition would be:

"A club is defined as an entity which has an ECF Club Code as alloacted by the ECF Grading Team".

What will happen now is that same people that were going to enter as a BCM enter as a Drunken Knights Team. However now only one person in the new team is a bona fide member of that club. Is that better or worse? Previously 3/4 members of the team were members of that club.
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John Upham
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by John Upham » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:50 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
John Upham wrote:I am informed that a club is not permitted to enter a team unless it has its own venue.
That might rule out some bona fide clubs in the London League who play all their home matches at Golden Lane, e.g. Mushrooms.
Indeed. There are examples of clubs who play in the London Chess League who do not have their own venue who (I would imagine) would be allowed to enter the NCC. Some of the clubs without venues also do not have a club night. Are these merely assemblages of persons as alluded to by JTM?

Does the DoHC know for sure which clubs up and down the land have a home venue? If not then the decision making is not based on fact.
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J T Melsom
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:57 pm

John

I would imagine that the decision of the grading team is for their own purposes. I personally wouldn't want to compete against teams which weren't clubs as currently defined by the event rules. Its not meant to be 4NCL-lite.

I don't understand your last paragraph. Are you saying that the same players do or do not qualify for the event. They will have had to have played for Drunken Knights , that is the only definition of bona fide for the purpose of this competition.

And can you give chapter and verse on the no home venue test - I don't see this in the rules, so am inclined to believe its not the full story and that something has been lost in translation.

David Sedgwick
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:17 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
John Upham wrote:I am informed that a club is not permitted to enter a team unless it has its own venue.
That might rule out some bona fide clubs in the London League who play all their home matches at Golden Lane, e.g. Mushrooms.
It would if the Rules said that, but they don't. See the extracts quoted by Roger above and the full Rules at http://www.englishchess.org.uk/national ... ules-1415/.

Mushrooms didn't have enough players interested and available to enter a team this season. We may do so next season.

Mike Truran
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by Mike Truran » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:44 pm

Perhaps the 4NCL should think about running a team weekender for 4NCL teams? :twisted:

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:19 pm

J T Melsom wrote:A club event with no definition of club where carloads of 4 people could constitute a club, might be more popular but wouldn't be a club event. ...
That's all fine and I can see why the format works at lower levels. But as I've been saying consistently, there is no appetite for this traditional club format at the higher (Open) level and it is a mystery why the ECF does not acknowledge it. I was serious, I expect they will readvertise the Open next year even if there remains just the one entrant this year!

J T Melsom
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:34 pm

Jonathan. I accept the point about the Open section, though I might conceivably have been able to field a team in that event . If there is no demand I'd rather see the section dropped than any attempt to change the eligibility criteria.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by MartinCarpenter » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:42 pm

But the eligibility criteria make no sense.

Take the Yorkshire league. All the teams in there are playing in an ECF graded league, and they've got venues too. However.... Calling a team representing the whole Sheffield league a club?

For that matter is there anything stopping anyone entering a county team? Can't see how you could argue with it with the SCCU teams - how is that competition NOT a ECF graded teams league? Heck the NCCU does, its just one match long ;)

You can argue about whether a county makes sense as a unit of chess competition, but you can easily define it :) A club? Goodness. Better not to try I think.

J T Melsom
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by J T Melsom » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:21 pm

As I'm not the event organiser I've not spent too much time considering the rules, which I suspect have been around for a substantial number of years. Your post is an interesting one, it looks as if I might be able to recognise a club when I see one but not necessarily define it. Mind you over on the constitutional reform thread people are advocating the club as the constituent unit for business, so perhaps they can shed some light :)

MartinCarpenter
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by MartinCarpenter » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:27 am

It is hard :) Beyond scale of course I don't actually think there's anything fundamentally different between a county team and a local league team. One is bigger.

I guess the closest you could do the intuitive idea would be to list the set of leagues which you consider affiliated and define a club as any entity playing in those. Even then I bet some of the London league teams actually draw from as big a population as some county squads do!

MSoszynski
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Re: National Club Championships 11-12 April 2015

Post by MSoszynski » Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:30 pm

MartinCarpenter wrote:Beyond scale of course I don't actually think there's anything fundamentally different between a county team and a local league team.
Compare how many County players aren't members of a Club to how many Club members don't play for a County. Compare how many County matches there are in a season... Compare the fact that Counties play at weekends... Compare the catchment/eligibility of Counties...
MartinCarpenter wrote:One is bigger.
How is that unimportant if one is much bigger (and of a very different nature)?

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