British Championship Congress 2017

Details of upcoming UK events, please provide working links if possible.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:22 pm

David Sedgwick said here:

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 31#p199599

"James Adair completed the norm requirements for the GM title in 2016. He opted not to apply for the title until he had met the rating requirement, which he has yet to do."

That probably means he didn't apply for the title conditional on rating.

Can anyone explain why the option to apply for a title conditional on rating is provided (and used)? Is this to allow people to achieve the rating and then instantly be available to play as a titled player (e.g. in other tournaments with norm-seekers), rather than having to wait for FIDE to approve the title at the next quarterly(?) meeting of the relevant committee or other FIDE commission? Is that the only real practical difference?

Question: if someone becomes a titled (or higher titled) player mid-tournament by achieving the rating condition for a rating-conditional title, does that change the parameters for the tournament (e.g. number of GMs) and for the people playing that player (e.g. other norm seekers) during the tournament, or does the change to the player's titled-status only take effect at the end of the tournament (the same way that there is a distinction between live ratings and published ratings)?

Maybe they become an IM or GM (or other title) during the tournament if they cross the rating level needed, but still count as an untitled player for the purposes of that tournament? Seems a bit of a grey area unless it is explicitly addressed in the FIDE regulations somewhere.
Last edited by Christopher Kreuzer on Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

NickFaulks
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:23 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:I believe you can apply for a title conditional on rating, but not essential.
It is highly desirable. The only drawback is that the application fee must be paid, even if you end up never getting the title.
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Alan Walton
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Alan Walton » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:29 pm

Christopher,

You don't get the title during the tournament; you only get the title once it is ratified by FIDE after the case at the Quarterly meetings

So it isn't a grey area whatsoever

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:55 pm

So the rating-conditional titles involve two approval processes? One approval when you apply for the rating-conditional title, and then a second approval again when you get the required rating? That seems counter-intuitive. I've seen people claiming that they have become a titled player immediately on achieving the rating for a rating-conditional title. Is that true or not?

Here is a recent example:

https://ratings.fide.com/title_applicat ... =48&reff=0

Espen Lie from Norway has three GM norms and his title application was approved at the 1st quarter Presidential Board Meeting 2017, 24-27 March, Athens, Greece. His rating card on the FIDE website still shows him as an IM (and rated below 2500), so presumably it was a rating-conditional title application:

https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=1502611

I can't yet locate any example of someone who achieved the rating requirement after a title application was made, and appeared again on the list of title applications at a FIDE Quarterly Meeting.

NickFaulks
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:17 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:So the rating-conditional titles involve two approval processes?
Not really. As soon as a suitable rating is published, the title is awarded automatically. When an adequate interim rating is achieved, the federation sends a detailed note to FIDE and the calculations are checked. Assuming everything is correct, the title is awarded at the end of that rating period.
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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:28 pm

Thank, Nick. That makes it much clearer.

Just to be crystal-clear: when a title is approved at a Quarterly Meeting, is that technically giving the title and rating people the authority to make the change at the end of that rating period, and the title becomes 'live' at that point, rather than at some point relating to the actual meeting? So if the person in question was taking part in a tournament at the time of the Quarterly Meeting, they would still not have a 'live' title until the following rating period? And if the tournament in question crossed into the next rating period, presumably the untitled status carries over until the tournament actually finishes?

(I see now why it can be problematic to have events such as chess leagues running over many rating periods.)

David Sedgwick
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:30 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:Agreed on the lack of local knowledge on part of the online commentary too, and this brings me to a point I made before - how did Michael Rahal, who as far as I know only played once in England (Lloyds Bank Masters 1994), become ENG on the FIDE list? Stewart Reuben once said on this forum that he would mail him to find out, but I don't believe that a satisfactory answer was ever reported back.
LawrenceCooper wrote:Maybe because he was born in England (Aldershot) https://translate.google.co.uk/translat ... rev=search
Spot on, Lawrence.

Jonathan, Stewart may never have answered your question, but I did, on here four and a half years ago.

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php ... 3&start=15, from which I quote:
David Sedgwick wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote:Reminds me of Michael Rahal, who none of us ever met and is only known to have played in England in Lloyds Bank masters, alongside dozens of other foreigners. We mentioned him on this forum a couple or so years ago too. Stewart promised on this forum to be in touch with him (in Spain) and to explain why he is ENG registered, but I don't think he ever did,
I did meet him, at the Lloyds Bank Masters, and I can explain.

When he first appeared on the FIDE Rating list as ENG registered, the then BCF assumed that this was a mistake and the late George Smith queried the matter with FIDE. However, the reply was that Rahal really had indicated a wish to be ENG registered. When he played at the Lloyds Bank Masters some months later, I was asked to raise the matter with him. He told me that he was a British national and had been born in England, and by way of confirmation he produced his British passport for my inspection. On the basis of this evidence the BCF agreed that he could be an ENG player.

However, it would appear that he is not currently an ECF member but has nevertheless been allowed to remain as an active ENG player on the FIDE Rating List. Please don't ask me to explain that.

NickFaulks
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:41 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:Can anyone explain why the option to apply for a title conditional on rating is provided (and used)?
In my opinion, the biggest reason is to be certain that the norms really are good. You don't get that officially confirmed until you make the title application. It is also true that you will get the title more speedily after attaining the necessary rating.
Question: if someone becomes a titled (or higher titled) player mid-tournament by achieving the rating condition for a rating-conditional title, does that change the parameters for the tournament (e.g. number of GMs) and for the people playing that player (e.g. other norm seekers) during the tournament
A player's title for all purposes in a tournament is the one he holds at the start.
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David Sedgwick
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by David Sedgwick » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:50 pm

Regarding James Adair and conditional title applications in general, most of the queries have already been answered but I can add a little.

Here is the note which I prepared for the ECF Office:

"[James Adair] has two choices

1. He can pay the fee and ask us to make the application now. In that case, his title will come into force as soon as his rating reaches 2500, the requisite level. He does run the slight risk that he will have wasted his money if he never gets to 2500.

2. He can ask us not to submit the application until he has reached 2500, and pay the fee when he does so. He will then have to wait a further period for the title to be ratified."

All that applies equally to any other English title aspirant, of course. I would not be publishing it were that not the case.

A title obtained by reaching a rating is not ratified until the end of the relevant month, just in case an earlier result appears.

A recent example is Alan Merry, who reached 2400 during last the Chess.com Isle of Man Masters last October. The arbiter duly certified this and the ECF submitted the details to FIDE. His IM title then came into effect in early November.

Barry Sandercock
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Barry Sandercock » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:29 pm

No moves in the Hawkins-Jones game ?

Paul Cooksey
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:32 pm

€330 to apply to be a GM if I'm reading this correctly - section 8

Honestly, I'd never thought about this before; but I think the ECF should pay for IM and GM applications. It is unlikely to see us bankrupted and back in the days when the ECF had a strategy it included encouraging people to get titles.

.

Barry Sandercock
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Barry Sandercock » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:36 pm

The Hawkins game has appeared now !

Barry Sandercock
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Barry Sandercock » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:54 pm

And he has won it.

Ian Thompson
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by Ian Thompson » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:19 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:A title obtained by reaching a rating is not ratified until the end of the relevant month, just in case an earlier result appears.
What happens if very late results come in? For example, a player appears to have met the rating requirement in August, so gets the title at the end of August. Some time in September a tournament played in July is rated. If that tournament had been rated in July, as it should have been, the player would not have met the rating requirement in August.

NickFaulks
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Re: British Championship Congress 2017

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:24 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote:A title obtained by reaching a rating is not ratified until the end of the relevant month, just in case an earlier result appears.
What happens if very late results come in? For example, a player appears to have met the rating requirement in August, so gets the title at the end of August. Some time in September a tournament played in July is rated. If that tournament had been rated in July, as it should have been, the player would not have met the rating requirement in August.
You can't go back, rating and title are good. The deliberate late reporting of a tournament is of course a serious offence.
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