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Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:32 pm
by Roger de Coverly
Nick Grey wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:20 pm
Parents pay for Junior selection?
The ECF receives no Government support and has limited sponsorship. Membership fees pay for the Office and the international teams, there isn't much left over to subsidise educational trips.
In fact there's now quite a number of people being remunerated for junior training. If the ECF needs additional funding, which it does, it could do worse than seeking a slice of the action. Federations organising international junior events already treat it as a money making enterprise, those Federations sending players could also try to cash in.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:43 pm
by J T Melsom
I am not at all sure how the ECF can charge or claim money from others for junior coaching. I think developing players is a good thing and if memory serves some local clubs have used juniors coached elsewhere without a development fee being attached.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:27 am
by Roger de Coverly
J T Melsom wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:43 pm
I am not at all sure how the ECF can charge or claim money from others for junior coaching.
It can aim to make a profit out of organising squads to participate in international events, rather than subsidising them by not charging for the expenses incurred by the Office in administering such trips. Equally squads are accompanied by coaches arranged and paid for by the ECF. Does it pass on these costs as incurred or aim to take a profit margin by facilitating them?
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:14 am
by NickFaulks
Alex Holowczak wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:19 am
I'm factoring that into our choice of exchange rate for junior trip invoices - when parents pay in GBP, but we have to pay everyone else in EUR several months later...
...which can be hedged at current rates, nice little arbitrage.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
by Alex Holowczak
To be clear, the ECF isn't aiming to make a profit off sending juniors to trips. It should be equally clear that parents have to fund the trips for themselves; the money doesn't come out of ECF income.
The difficulty that we have is that we receive the money in GBP and pay FIDE/ECU/the local organisers in EUR. In the event that the pound crashes after Brexit, then it's a problem if we have to pay more EUR than we collected in GBP. We have to build in a bit of a safety margin even for normal currency fluctuations. If a surplus is made from the trips due to currency fluctuations, then this will be re-invested in the Bursary Fund, a Fund which is made available to help people who can't afford to go on trips. This seems to be the best pragmatic solution to me.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:41 am
by Ian Thompson
Alex Holowczak wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
The difficulty that we have is that we receive the money in GBP and pay FIDE/ECU/the local organisers in EUR. In the event that the pound crashes after Brexit, then it's a problem if we have to pay more EUR than we collected in GBP. We have to build in a bit of a safety margin even for normal currency fluctuations.
Surely, opening a Euro bank account and paying the money received in pounds into it as soon as it is received is not difficult.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:54 am
by Alex Holowczak
Ian Thompson wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:41 am
Alex Holowczak wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:21 am
The difficulty that we have is that we receive the money in GBP and pay FIDE/ECU/the local organisers in EUR. In the event that the pound crashes after Brexit, then it's a problem if we have to pay more EUR than we collected in GBP. We have to build in a bit of a safety margin even for normal currency fluctuations.
Surely, opening a Euro bank account and paying the money received in pounds into it as soon as it is received is not difficult.
It's not clear to me how that solves the problem. If people have a month to pay an invoice in pounds, you'll still get people paying different amounts of Euros over the course of a month. So you still have to factor that in to the exchange rate.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:39 pm
by J T Melsom
Roger de Coverly wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:27 am
J T Melsom wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:43 pm
I am not at all sure how the ECF can charge or claim money from others for junior coaching.
It can aim to make a profit out of organising squads to participate in international events, rather than subsidising them by not charging for the expenses incurred by the Office in administering such trips. Equally squads are accompanied by coaches arranged and paid for by the ECF. Does it pass on these costs as incurred or aim to take a profit margin by facilitating them?
I think developing junior players is a good thing and consistent with ECF objectives. I want teams to be given reasonable assistance in achieving their potential at such events and as I'd hope chess were accessible to as many as possible I would be wary of imposing further financial burdens. As I think we've discussed before most clubs including your own set lower fees for juniors - this is regarded as a good thing, and profits us as a chess community in more ways than can be measured in financial terms.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:34 am
by Matt Bridgeman
I wonder if it would be a worthwhile idea for the ECF to approach Nigel Short and suggest a proper overhaul of the current conditions set for European and World level junior events. Having done a couple of these trips now it seems to be that the events are modelled to be a money making venture for the local chess federations. One example that stands out is that children and parents are forced to pay through the nose for the events set accommodation, and strictly don't have any options to shop around and take cheaper alternatives. At present the average cost for one player and one accompanying parent is probably not far off £4000, when you factor in all the associated costs. I think for a lot of families with talented players the current costs involved make these type of trips quite unrealistic, or perhaps at best a one off type experience.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:13 am
by Alex Holowczak
Matt Bridgeman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:34 am
I wonder if it would be a worthwhile idea for the ECF to approach Nigel Short and suggest a proper overhaul of the current conditions set for European and World level junior events. Having done a couple of these trips now it seems to be that the events are modelled to be a money making venture for the local chess federations. One example that stands out is that children and parents are forced to pay through the nose for the events set accommodation, and strictly don't have any options to shop around and take cheaper alternatives. At present the average cost for one player and one accompanying parent is probably not far off £4000, when you factor in all the associated costs. I think for a lot of families with talented players the current costs involved make these type of trips quite unrealistic, or perhaps at best a one off type experience.
European events are not really his ambit, but from FIDE's perspective, they are already committed to doing something about the "official hotel" issue. They demonstrated this in St. Petersburg by providing hotels that were available if people wanted them, but they were not mandatory.
I hope FIDE do something about it, but they're not the ones in a position of power at the moment; organisations bid to host them, and based on what I saw in Batumi, the bids are often uncontested. Where bids are contested, there's usually horse-trading before in advance so there ends up only being one genuine bid for each of the tournaments. So work needs to be done if FIDE are going to move in the direction we'd all like to see, but it hasn't been done yet. So I guess it's watch this space.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:41 am
by Roger de Coverly
Matt Bridgeman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:34 am
At present the average cost for one player and one accompanying parent is probably not far off £4000, when you factor in all the associated costs.
Is there still a requirement for the organisers to offer one free place per Federation? That would increase the price for additional players if the organiser needed to balance their books. The ECF follows a policy of adding up the total costs and dividing by the number of participants, so it spreads any subsidy from free entry and accommodation over the whole squad.
Re: 2019 new ECF junior selection policy
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:53 pm
by Roger Lancaster
Subject of excessive charges for junior internationals also covered at
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9859