ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

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Neill Cooper
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ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Neill Cooper » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:57 pm

This year's U19 School's finals are taking place at Uppingham Schools on 2nd and 3rd July.
16 teams from schools aorund the country are taking part. Top seeds RGS Guildford are very strong, with an average grade of over 190. Even so their first round match, like many others, was close.

There is live reporting of the results on the League Management System at https://ecflms.org.uk/lms/node/39266/efixtures

Ian Thompson
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:10 pm

Neill Cooper wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:57 pm
There is live reporting of the results on the League Management System at https://ecflms.org.uk/lms/node/39266/efixtures
... but it appears to be misleading. For example, at the time of writing, there are three schools shown as having 4 match points after 2 rounds in the league table. Look at the individual match results though, and the matches are still in progress with none of the schools having scored the 3.5 points (out of 6) they need to win the match. They're leading the match, but haven't yet won it.

Neill Cooper
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Neill Cooper » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:14 pm

Whilst the individual match results are correct the table is not as this is not a Swiss tournament but a modified knock out.

Tomorrow morning the semi-final matches are:
RGS Guildford vs City of London School
RGS Newcastle vs Hampton School

Neill Cooper
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Neill Cooper » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:50 pm

The final is Hampton School vs City of London Boys School

Jim Wadsworth
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Jim Wadsworth » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:19 pm

I gather from other sources that City of London Boys won- congrats to them.

However, I have to say I am rather confused by the format of this year's U19 final.

The published rules (https://www.englishchess.org.uk/NSCC/un ... s-2018-19/) say it should be a 4 round swiss, and no drawn matches are allowed. Meantime the table at https://ecflms.org.uk/lms/node/39266/table suggests that drawn matches were allowed and that it was a 4 round swiss (with reigning champions Reading prevailing).

However, Neill's posts reference a semi- and a final.

What have I missed? Are there some different rules published somewhere?

(FAOD I have no vested interest - whilst he was at school at Reading, Matthew is now at uni - I am simply curious).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:27 pm

Jim Wadsworth wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:19 pm
Meantime the table at https://ecflms.org.uk/lms/node/39266/table suggests that drawn matches were allowed and that it was a 4 round swiss (with reigning champions Reading prevailing).
I think the problem is that the ecflms system doesn't correctly report a knock out system where drawn matches are broken by tie break.

It would appear all teams played to the end but only first round and continuing winners were playing for the Championship, whilst first round losers who subsequently won were playing for the Plate.

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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Neill Cooper » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:51 pm

Jim, Roger is correct. Please ignore the league tables. I am sure the full results of this event will soon be published by the organisers.
In the mean time one approach would be to look at every draw and decide who won. City of London Boys School won 2 matches on board count, and thereby won all 4 fixtures and therefore the championships. (Similarly Wilson’s lost to Tiffin on bottom board elimination.)

When I proposed that the final be expanded to 16 teams, which has been hugely successful in terms of motivating secondary school chess, Dave Welch developed a fair system for pairing the event. This is the first year ‘live’ match results have been published but the unique tournament structure cannot be replicated by the LMS.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:04 am

Neill Cooper wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:51 pm

When I proposed that the final be expanded to 16 teams, which has been hugely successful in terms of motivating secondary school chess, Dave Welch developed a fair system for pairing the event.
What was the tiebreak if all 6 games in a match had ended in draws?

Jim Wadsworth
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Jim Wadsworth » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:51 pm

Neill Cooper wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:51 pm
Please ignore the league tables. I am sure the full results of this event will soon be published by the organisers.

......

When I proposed that the final be expanded to 16 teams, which has been hugely successful in terms of motivating secondary school chess, Dave Welch developed a fair system for pairing the event.
Thanks Neill.

Will the actual rules that seem to have been used - and I am sure Dave's methodology is excellent btw - be published too? Just seems a bit strange to run an event in a way that appears inconsistent with the advertised approach!

John Swain
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by John Swain » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:54 am

The rules of the Under 19 National Schools Chess Championship may be found at:

https://www.englishchess.org.uk/NSCC/un ... s-2018-19/

The rules have changed very little in the past four years since Neill Cooper introduced the new format in 2016: sixteen teams at the Final, no age handicap and a prior repechage to give a second chance to strong teams knocked out at the regional stage by an even stronger neighbour.

My report as U19 NSCC Organiser may be found at:

https://www.englishchess.org.uk/NSCC/u19-finals/

In due course, there will be some additional photos and a few games or tactical positions from the Final. Congratulations to all sixteen teams on qualifying for the Finals (from an original entry of 142 teams) and particular congratulations to City of London School on their first-ever victory in the Championship.

Phill Beckett improved the event by publishing the results virtually live on the ECF's LMS, enabling those on-site and elsewhere to follow the results. As Neill has pointed out, one snag has appeared which understandably caused confusion: the league table should be ignored since it treats a 3-3 match as a draw, whereas the rules have always been clear about tie-breaks. We do run a seeded swiss, but with no drawn matches allowed, so we followed the same procedures as in previous years. Essentially, the old knock-out format in retained under the umbrella of a seeded swiss with two teams unbeaten at the Finals competing in the fourth round for the trophy.

A couple of quick points in answer to other queries. The LMS system seems to refer to the "winning team" whilst the match is in progress, where a team might be only 2-0 up; a team may well know it has won when it is 3-0 up (e.g. having won on boards 2, 3 and 5). Secondly, in answer to Roger's query, a 3-3 match which cannot be decided by boardcount or bottom board elimination (because all six games are drawn) is awarded to the team with Black on board 1.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:03 am

John Swain wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:54 am
Essentially, the old knock-out format in retained under the umbrella of a seeded swiss with two teams unbeaten at the Finals competing in the fourth round for the trophy.
Do you amalgamate first , second and third round losers in the pairings? I rather had the impression that after round 1, it divided into two 16 team, three round tournaments.

John Swain
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Re: ECF U19 National Schools Chess Championships final 2019

Post by John Swain » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:21 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:03 am
John Swain wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:54 am
Essentially, the old knock-out format in retained under the umbrella of a seeded swiss with two teams unbeaten at the Finals competing in the fourth round for the trophy.
Do you amalgamate first , second and third round losers in the pairings? I rather had the impression that after round 1, it divided into two 16 team, three round tournaments.
One advantage of the pairing system originally devised by Dave Welch is that a first-round loser can still finish third equal by winning the next three matches - they are not limited to 9th-16th position.

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