World Youth Championships

National developments, strategies and ideas.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by LawrenceCooper » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:33 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:58 pm
In terms of grading, with the junior plus 50/minus 50 system, a win over a 180 is worth 230. So other than the 6 monthly 5 point junior bonus, he’s already more or less maxed out in the Dorset area for now due to a lack of 200+ rated players in his league. Will it be the case with the new 4 digit system that the limitations will be off and he could steadily build his rating?
My (somewhat dated) understanding is that every win against players more than 40 points below him will give him 229 + 10 so the potential is there to go up ten points each season with a hundred per cent score.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:37 pm

I don’t think the junior system has the 40 points idea. I stand to be corrected :)

So without it I was thinking a junior might end up with a little bit of a ceiling if they can’t play those 200+ players.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:02 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:37 pm
I don’t think the junior system has the 40 points idea. I stand to be corrected
I think you are correct. The same performance every year would result in the same grade because the calculation is repeated with a clean sheet as if a new player. The ECF's monthly rating system, being Elo theory based is likely to change that.

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JustinHorton
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:32 pm

Phil Makepeace wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:47 pm
it's clear that in seeking to arrest the scrutiny and commentary, the Dorset association and whomever else with a duty of care has completely failed him.
I don't want to definitively condemn anybody without hearing their side of the story, but my strong impression, going by the facts currently available to me, is that the Dorset association really need to give a satisfactory account of how they have approached this matter.

Of course the most important thing will be to learn lessons as to how to approach similar situations in the future. I am not sure that lesson-learning is among our great strengths as a community, but we might need to work on that
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David Sedgwick
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:28 pm

John Upham wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:08 pm
For those that like to collect records can we agree that 229 ECF is the highest ever first standard play grade for OTB play for someone who has never had a grade or rating from any country ?

I'm struggling to think of anyone who has beaten this record.

229 equates to 2417 ELO/FIDE.

Garry Kasparov's first FIDE Rating, in July 1979, was 2545. He didn't have a Soviet Union National Rating as there was no such thing, only categories.

John Upham
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by John Upham » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:47 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:28 pm
John Upham wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:08 pm
For those that like to collect records can we agree that 229 ECF is the highest ever first standard play grade for OTB play for someone who has never had a grade or rating from any country ?

I'm struggling to think of anyone who has beaten this record.

229 equates to 2417 ELO/FIDE.

Garry Kasparov's first FIDE Rating, in July 1979, was 2545. He didn't have a Soviet Union National Rating as there was no such thing, only categories.
And if we restrict the discussion to the UK countries ?
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Harry Duff
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Harry Duff » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:52 am

Kasparov had a strong history prior to his first grading though. Botvinnik for one, Leonard Barden for another were raving about him from a young age eg didn't Botvinnik say something like the future of chess was in his hands? And Leonard predicted he would be world champion following Kasparovs performance in the 1975 USSR Junior Championship aged 11.

Tim Spanton
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Tim Spanton » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:49 am

Kasparov's first ranking was a national one - a "first category" player at the age of about 10. This USSR ranking is roughly equivalent, I believe, to 2000 Fide or almost 175 ECF

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Matt Bridgeman
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:56 am

In regards to an FM title, if he went 5/5 in an event such as the North Wales Open or Manchester Congress Open, and came away with a first ever FIDE standard rating of 2400, would be then be eligible to apply for the title?

And if so, would the ECF have grounds to refuse to endorse the application to FIDE if there hadn’t as yet been any formal investigation in to suspicions regarding the players genuine ability?

Matthew Turner
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:14 am

Initial FIDE ratings don't work that way. So to get a starting rating of 2400 you would have to play an average field of around 2400 (and score 50% or more). You need 9 games for an official rating, so it would take two weekend events. I would have thought it would be very difficult in England to start with a rating of over 2300 (although I think it has been achieved in the past). Of course with U18's having a K factor of 40 it would be possible for a junior to go up very rapidly.

Matthew Turner
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:38 am

Looking back at last year's North Wales Open, if you played the top five seeds and scored 5/5 this equates to something like a 2600 performance (of course there isn't an upper bound for a 100% performance). However, I think this would only result in a part rating performance of circa 2240.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:47 am

Immediate CM title?

NickFaulks
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:50 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:14 am
You need 9 games for an official rating
No, you need five.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:51 am

Matthew Turner wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:14 am
You need 9 games for an official rating,
It was reduced to 5 games in 2017

https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B022017

from which
7.14b
If based on results obtained under 6.4, a minimum of 5 games played against rated opponents.
You need 30 games for the FM and CM titles

https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/B01Regulations2017
Titles may be gained by achieving a published or interim rating at some time or other (see 1.53a) having at that time played at least 30 rated games:
1.31 FIDE Master ≥2300
1.32 Candidate Master ≥2200
1.33 Women FIDE Master ≥2100
1.34 Women Candidate Master ≥2000

Matthew Turner
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Re: World Youth Championships

Post by Matthew Turner » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:54 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:50 am
Matthew Turner wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:14 am
You need 9 games for an official rating
No, you need five.
Sorry, my mistake - out of date on that one.

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