Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:30 am

"Out of interest, how old was your opponent?"

Early 20s maybe, I didn't identify the tournament, but it was the "Combined Services Championship", so no juniors were involved. The nature of many players' work makes it difficult sometimes to play OTB chess, therefore online chess is popular. (The event has loads of people with inaccurate grades as of course they don't play much.)

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:40 am

The UK Chess Challenge would be a good one to look at. I think around 40,000 school kids start at the first tournament stage - the mega final. Then regional ‘Giga Finals’ and finally a national Terra Final (with quite large cash rewards it must be said) and a relatively small field of finalists. It’s been running successfully for years, now under Sarah Longson and formerly under Mike Basman. This tournament definitely brings out junior players who don’t normally play in classical tournaments and presumably play a lot in school and online. There’s definitely some good players floating around that people haven’t heard of. But come the Terra Final stages the top finishing finalists are normally well established juniors with a long tournament history. To my knowledge there hasn’t been a purely online player who has ever gone through those tournaments and cleaned up.

Pete Heaven
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Pete Heaven » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:43 am

Just to hopefully add some clarity and to tie together a number of previous posts, the chronology is (TPR ratings amended to approximate FIDE for consistency).

[Maybe the ECF/DCCA have all this information but, if not, it may help them. I have stuck to facts and am ignoring everything to do with baseball caps, brilliant classical games, both brilliant and beginner-level blitz games, anecdotal post-game comments, speed of moving, availability of scanning equipment etc]

February 2019 - 50% in a junior tournament won with 100% by a junior rated ECF 102 (the winner's rating has not spiralled upwards since). Most players were unrated so no TPR.
April 2019 - lichess account closed 'the player uses chess computer assistance'
13 September 2019 - 6/6 in a club 10 second buzzer tournament (only 2 entrants over ECF 170). No TPR available.
22 September 2019 - 10/11 in a blitz event (lowest opponent rating ECF 165). TPR in excess of 2350
11-13 October 2019 4.5/5 in weekend congress. 9 players over ECF 170. Draw in last round to secure outright first. TPR in excess of 2350.
September-December 2019. 14.5/15 in club championship and club games. Most games vs ECF 180+ players. TPR in excess of 2350.
8 December 2019. 1/10 in a blitz event. TPR 1071.

I hope this helps provide a comprehensive picture.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:09 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:30 am
"Out of interest, how old was your opponent?"

Early 20s maybe, I didn't identify the tournament, but it was the "Combined Services Championship", so no juniors were involved. The nature of many players' work makes it difficult sometimes to play OTB chess, therefore online chess is popular. (The event has loads of people with inaccurate grades as of course they don't play much.)
That's really interesting, thanks, as was the point in your previous posting about struggling with notation. (I'm sure I have a memory of coming across something similar before, but I can't quite place it.) Of course you'd want to know more about the individual concerned - did they play at school, for instance - before drawing any conclusions.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Alex Holowczak
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:51 pm

Michael Farthing wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:43 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:28 pm
Even if Council votes for it, large swathes of English chess will just ignore it anyway and carry on regardless. After all, almost all of English chess has shown zero appetite to introduce their own policies so far, which they have been perfectly at liberty to do without the ECF Board being involved at all.
And perhaps they have no desire to introduce such policies as they have minimal problems and the introduction of preventative measures would destroy the comradely feel of their local activities.
I think lots of leagues will think in this way. The Birmingham League has a rulechange proposal to be considered at its January Management Committee meeting where the rule on mobile phones will be relaxed, such that if it makes a noise the player will just get a warning. This would bring it into line with a rule that already exists in the neighbouring Wolverhampton League. The Wolverhampton League clearly isn't concerned about potential cheating in its league, and maybe we'll find out in January that the Birmingham League also isn't.

J T Melsom
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by J T Melsom » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:22 pm

Debates of this kind really shouldn't be expressed in terms of being concerned about potential cheating or not. Instead the debate is about whether the measures proposed are proportionate and practical. In Bucks at least one player routinely ignores the rules, but he is just being a nuisance rather than cheating (sometimes he may be on call), and I suspect challenging him on this would create the sort of unnecessary scenes that previous disputes have created. I'm personally happy to be in a phone free world for the duration of my game. Others may feel differently and in any case cheating seems to be going a bit beyond bleeping phones these days.

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David Shepherd
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by David Shepherd » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:32 pm

My personal opinion is that it is just wrong to speculate further and very questionable whether the matter should have been raised in public particularly given it is a junior, and given most of the speculation seems to be surrounding tournaments at a very quick time control.

There are really two possibilities;

1) He was not cheating - the speculation will have been extremely damaging, unjustified and just sad.
2) He was cheating - in which case given the speed of the time controls something very sophisticated was happening and the chance to find out what has probably been lost

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JustinHorton
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:57 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:22 pm
. Instead the debate is about whether the measures proposed are proportionate and practical
Well maybe, but it's surely not actually that impractical to turn the sound on your phone off, and it's surely not too disproportionate to expect people to do this, as they do in a variety of other social situations.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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J T Melsom
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by J T Melsom » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:47 pm

Justin - I don't disagree with you, the original post to which I responded suggested those that wanted to relax the rules were somehow not bothered about cheating. Even allowing for the rhetoric commonly used on social media that's a bit silly.

Incidentally and slightly off topic - in those other social situations are you punished for non compliance? Are you automatically removed from a theatre for instance?

Mick Norris
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:03 pm

You are asked to have phones on silent or off at the cinema and the theatre; you get chucked out for filming the performances I assume

You aren't allowed phones in exams, which is possibly a more comparable situation

My daughter's school have now banned pupils from having phones switched on during the school day
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:07 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:51 pm
The Wolverhampton League clearly isn't concerned about potential cheating in its league, and maybe we'll find out in January that the Birmingham League also isn't.
You could have a rule that says a phone should be switched off and out of use, coupled with a penalty that's less than loss of game if it turns out by making a sound to have been let on.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:20 pm

For what it's worth, the Old Vic says
Mobile phones and other communication devices must be switched to airplane mode before entering the auditorium
and the National Theatre
Mobile phones and other electronic equipment must be switched off (not silenced) before entering the auditorium
In neither instance did I find anything explicitiy saying "or you may find yourself taking an aerial route to the outside pavement" but I imagine we can assume it is implicit. Whether this actually happens in practice, though, who knows.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Alex McFarlane
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:24 pm

For clarification
My comment about players appearing from nowhere and giving good performances was a general statement and not specific (as Carl requested). This can be a problem in Minor and Major sections at weekenders (giving a partial answer to Justin).
And replying to Mick regarding the anti-social aspect. I am frequently 'requesting' players not to turn on their phones at the conclusion of their game until after they have left the tournament hall. A not insignificant number of players find it impossible to wait that additional 30 seconds before switching on their life support system. Another problem is the returning player (now spectator) who forgets to switch of his phone. I accept that in many circumstances a player will have a phone with them but they should be doing as much as possible to minimise any potential problems.

James Hooker
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by James Hooker » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:08 pm

Pete Heaven wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:43 am
Just to hopefully add some clarity and to tie together a number of previous posts, the chronology is (TPR ratings amended to approximate FIDE for consistency).

[Maybe the ECF/DCCA have all this information but, if not, it may help them. I have stuck to facts and am ignoring everything to do with baseball caps, brilliant classical games, both brilliant and beginner-level blitz games, anecdotal post-game comments, speed of moving, availability of scanning equipment etc]

February 2019 - 50% in a junior tournament won with 100% by a junior rated ECF 102 (the winner's rating has not spiralled upwards since). Most players were unrated so no TPR.
April 2019 - lichess account closed 'the player uses chess computer assistance'
13 September 2019 - 6/6 in a club 10 second buzzer tournament (only 2 entrants over ECF 170). No TPR available.
22 September 2019 - 10/11 in a blitz event (lowest opponent rating ECF 165). TPR in excess of 2350
11-13 October 2019 4.5/5 in weekend congress. 9 players over ECF 170. Draw in last round to secure outright first. TPR in excess of 2350.
September-December 2019. 14.5/15 in club championship and club games. Most games vs ECF 180+ players. TPR in excess of 2350.
8 December 2019. 1/10 in a blitz event. TPR 1071.

I hope this helps provide a comprehensive picture.
we can also add a chess.com account of his being closed for cheating in August 2019

https://www.chess.com/member/sheldortheassassin

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: Statement made by the B&DCL and DCCA

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:12 pm

I spotted that one but didn’t realise it was closed for a fair play violation. A few weeks before his debut in the Dorset league no?
Last edited by Matt Bridgeman on Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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