News

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Joseph Conlon
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Re: News

Post by Joseph Conlon » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:47 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:34 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:29 pm
A comment in Leonard's latest Guardian column that might be relevant.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... a-disaster
English juniors swept the first prizes in the Open, Major and Minor at the 4NCL congress at Leamington, the first important weekend congress since the pandemic. There are signs of an upturn in junior results as teens and sub-teens use skills acquired from online chess in over the board competition.

This improvement coincides with an apparent switch in policy by the English Chess Federation and its junior director, Alex Holowczak, from sending large teams of juniors to events to giving priority to the best talents. Elite spotting paid off in the 1970s and 1980s. when English juniors were No 2 in the world behind the then Soviet Union, but in the last two decades, when the net was cast wider, not a single English junior has reached a 2650 rating, the level of the top world 100 players.
I'm totally confused by the second paragraph :? Can anyone translate?
Seconded - I thought sending large teams of juniors *was* the current policy. Even if it was the case (I don't know) that 5 years ago even larger teams were standard, the current (at least pre-Covid) situation is a world away from the one I and others grew up in where there was the World Junior, the European Juniors and one place available in each one across a double age group.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: News

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:04 pm

Joseph Conlon wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:47 pm
Seconded - I thought sending large teams of juniors *was* the current policy.
Back in the 1970s,1980s and early 1990s, it had been a policy to send largish squads to major tournaments such as Hastings, Isle of Man, Guernsey etc. Usually these were teenagers which, rather than eight year olds, are the group from which non-prodigy IMs and GMs would emerge. It had started by 1975, possibly earlier, as I recall the Lambeth Open of that year being randomised by a junior squad upsetting some then better known players. There were also the mass simuls against visiting Soviet GMs and others selected for that ordeal.

In that era entries to international junior championships were mostly restricted to one per country. The English representatives would be amongst the favourites but only had to face one Soviet player rather than potentially dozens.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: News

Post by Joseph Conlon » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:07 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:04 pm
Joseph Conlon wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:47 pm
Seconded - I thought sending large teams of juniors *was* the current policy.
Back in the 1970s,1980s and early 1990s, it had been a policy to send largish squads to major tournaments such as Hastings, Isle of Man, Guernsey etc. Usually these were teenagers which, rather than eight year olds, are the group from which non-prodigy IMs and GMs would emerge. It had started by 1975, possibly earlier, as I recall the Lambeth Open of that year being randomised by a junior squad upsetting some then better known players. There were also the mass simuls against visiting Soviet GMs and others selected for that ordeal.

In that era entries to international junior championships were mostly restricted to one per country. The English representatives would be amongst the favourites but only had to face one Soviet player rather than potentially dozens.
All of that (excepting the simuls against visiting Soviet GMs) certainly describes junior chess as I remember it from late 80s to late 90s (my year of birth is 1981).

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: News

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:13 pm

There was the memorable Guernsey where Tony Corfe waltzed up to a startled Eric Croker and said, "I've brought 24 juniors, you're not allowed to pair them against each other", then started to wander off. He was dragged back and informed that as there were only about 100 players and there were seven rounds, that would almost certainly be impossible. Eric did try, but every round was confronted by a wailing Tony, that there were junior vs junior pairings. Several adults never returned to the island as they had played seven juniors... (one asked if he were eligible for the junior prize as he had only played juniors.)

Wadih Khoury
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Re: News

Post by Wadih Khoury » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:35 pm

I can't comment on the older days, but my understanding of junior chess over the last 3-5 years is as follow:
  • International junior events have always been in that period 100% financed by parents (flights, hotels, coaching, entry fees, etc..). The only caveat was that I believe that any funding due to a junior's prior year performance would be reinvested across all those qualified the following year.
  • Qualification was initially either on ECF grade or on winning some tournaments (British, UKCC or the defunct Junior Grand Prix).
  • This was later tightened to tough Fide ratings beyond a certain age (only Royal could qualify under the rating policy) and limited tournaments (British winner and UKCC winner). This caused a big uproar due to the strictness of the criteria and the lack of FIDE tournaments in England.
  • There was a lot of debate, arguing that juniors needed the international exposure and be exposed to the higher international standards. They needed both a reality check and inspiration from the top international juniors. It was argued that progress of English chess would be limited if juniors only played national tournaments.
  • Possibly due to the above point and possibly due to covid, the policy for 2021 is that anyone can go to any international junior event, whatever their level. The ECF will have some limited funds for a handful of English Team players, selected by a committee. The Accelerator and ECF academy can also select players and handle some of the admin. I think this policy achieves the right balance and combines Barden's aspiration to support and focus on the stronger players, while still allowing the junior population to be exposed to international events, and hopefully progress into the "stronger" player pool.
  • Elite spotting is a proven way that works, but it does not help without money. And currently, as far as I know, apart from the Chess Trust Accelerator program (limited to 12 players) and maybe a couple other trusts, there is limited (which is a polite way of saying "no") money in the junior circuit. Until we can get effective cash (sponsors) or other type of support (like free venues, volunteering from titled players or coaches) it will remain very difficult for England to compete with state funded or sponsored countries.
  • Online chess offers a big and cheaper opportunity to develop and teach juniors (as done by the Academy and a few coaches). In my opinion, it does not however replace the benefits of OtB chess against stronger opponents.

Nick Ivell
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Re: News

Post by Nick Ivell » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:46 pm

I went to Guernsey as part of a small junior squad in 1975 and 1976. They have been my only visits to that beautiful island.

Matt Bridgeman
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Re: News

Post by Matt Bridgeman » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:48 pm

At which point did International Junior Championships in Europe transition to being a cash cow for the home nations to milk? I think it's only recently there's a hint that accommodation isn't tied into the event with eye watering prices. I've no idea if events actually have become more affordable or not though.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: News

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:50 pm

I hesitate to take issue with Leonard but am I not right in thinking that, in the era when just one England junior went to each event, that was because the event rules restricted the number of entrants from each country? Leaving that to one side, I am unconvinced that there is any cause-and-effect correlation between the number of juniors sent to international events and the number that ultimately become IMs or GMs. That's partly because I don't see how, logically, support for the numbers 2 or 3 adversely affects the prospects of the number 1 [and, in fact, there's a proverb about not placing all one's eggs in one basket] and partly because, if it were the case, other countries would do this when it seems to me that they don't. The most obvious and extreme examples are host countries which typically flood events with competitors - sometimes dozens of them.

Joseph Conlon
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Re: News

Post by Joseph Conlon » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:11 pm

Matt Bridgeman wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:48 pm
At which point did International Junior Championships in Europe transition to being a cash cow for the home nations to milk? I think it's only recently there's a hint that accommodation isn't tied into the event with eye watering prices. I've no idea if events actually have become more affordable or not though.
I wish I could answer that, but as a junior the payment element all happened over my head and I don't know how much the actual costs were.

One thing I am curious about though, is to what extent the culture has changed so that parents now routinely accompany juniors to such events. My dad came when I went to the world U10s in 1990 (age 9), but never subsequently (and this was commonplace). So I went unaccompanied to the world U12 at Bratislava (aged ~12) and then BCF Junior Squad trips to Budapest (age ~10), Guernsey (~13), Isle of Man (~14), Netherlands, Italy, South Africa and Montenegro (all up to about 16) and, most exotic of all, Hastings in December. When juniors sleep 3 or 4 to a room or in large dormitories, the accommodation costs are bound to be quite low.

I feel this culture has gone (in the same way it used to be standard at the LJCC for there to be a list of London parents who would take non-London children as overnight guests for the duration of the event). Mostly I think this is a shame, although I should also state that I recall one event where a leader's behaviour, while not illegal, would certainly now be regarded as improper towards the pre-teen/teenage boys he was responsible for.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: News

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:28 pm

"When juniors sleep 3 or 4 to a room or in large dormitories, the accommodation costs are bound to be quite low."

which didn't mean the parents were charged a low amount... Of course, there was coaching between rounds, so some mark-up is reasonable.

John Swain
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Location: Nottingham

Re: News

Post by John Swain » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:29 pm

Two sets of Board minutes have appeared for March and May 2021:

https://www.englishchess.org.uk/about/minutes/

Item 7 of the minutes for the meeting in May (No. 144) provides some interesting insights:

"7. The English Junior Organisers and Coaches Association - Application to Become a FIDE Academy (RW)

RW explained the nature of the English Junior Organisers and Coaches Association (EJOCA) and what it does. He outlined what he saw as EJOCA’s challenges. He highlighted the lack of new English titled IMs and GMs from 2001. Members of the Board expressed their agreement that this record needed addressing, while recognising that a number of issues such as the prevailing cultural environment in England, Sport England’s refusal to recognise chess as a sport, and the difficulty of retaining children as chess players during the secondary education stage were significant obstacles.
RW proposed the setting up of an EJCOA FIDE Academy to be at the bottom of the Development Pathway pyramid, feeding the ECF Academy. RW emphasised that EJOCA would not aim to circumvent the ECF in any way.
After RW’s presentation there was a wide-ranging discussion. Most of the debate revolved around EJOCA’s desire to apply to FIDE for FIDE Academy status. A number of Board members were concerned at the confusion to parents/guardians and children that could be caused if two separate organisations, both including the word ‘Academy’ in their description, were to be seen to be publicising and providing coaching services to juniors, Some felt that there was a need for a FIDE Academy but it should be the ECF Academy that took the role on, whilst others supported the idea presented by RW of EJOCA running a FIDE Academy. Otherwise, there was a consensus of support for the rest of the EJOCA initiative.
MT suggested that RW, AH, NT and he should meet outside the Board to try to reach a resolution on the FIDE Academy issue in particular. Whilst RW welcomed this, he also wanted to take a vote on his proposal at the Board meeting. MP suggested that a non-binding straw poll be taken on whether the ECF supported EJCOA applying to become a FIDE Academy.
AA had earlier stated he had to leave the meeting and had given his vote to AH. DL had given MP his proxy vote, stating that he supported the proposal for EJOCA to apply for FIDE Academy status.
The Board voted 6-5 against RW’s proposal.
The Board delegated MT, RW, NT, and AH to discuss a way forward.
AP144/02 MT, RW, NT, and AH to meet as soon as possible to discuss on the matters related to RW’s presentation."

Andrew Martin
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Re: News

Post by Andrew Martin » Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:25 am

Rather frustrating , as I recall.

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John Upham
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Re: News

Post by John Upham » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:22 am

Regarding the 6-5 vote of the Board:

Would you be interested in learning who voted for and and who voted against?

It might be interesting to compare your predictions with actuality.
British Chess News : britishchessnews.com
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Matthew Turner
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Re: News

Post by Matthew Turner » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:24 am

Andrew Martin wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:25 am
Rather frustrating , as I recall.
What is that the ECJOA want to do that they are being prevented from doing?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: News

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:06 pm

Matthew Turner wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:24 am

What is that the ECJOA want to do that they are being prevented from doing?
Back in the days when Phil Ehr was CEO, there was a row when the ECF attempted to enforce monopoly rights over applications for FIDE Academy status and selection access to official international junior events, Could this be similar? In any event with an ECF Board seemingly divided on this issue, a motivation can be seen for EJCOA's advocacy of regime change.

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