Open Letter to the ECF about junior selection

[Jim Wadsworth]

Hi Jim,

Can I ask, how much exactly/approx. was it for coaching? Can you give us a break down of the £800?

Cheers

Krishna

As I said in prior post...

Can't remember the exact breakdown

That said, coaching related costs were probably more than half of the c£800. Whatever it was, it was by far the most valuable portion of the spend. The opportunity for the players to spend time with some of our top coaches in preparing for and analysing individual games at these events is a key part of the value-add.

More than one player on the European trips I have been on has been taken aback by the quality of the work that they did with the coaches. And don't forget pretty much all the players at this level work with professional coaches at home in the UK.

[Carol Williams]

I think Peter Purland does a noble and responsible job for British Chess. He took over the job at a very tough time and has stood firm. I back him 100%. This does not mean I agree with all the policies 100%, far from it; but that is a healthy situation.

Change will come and must come and discussion is good, but for the time being I ask who would be willing to take on the role of Director as it currently stands? Give me some names.....

Throwing down the gauntlet of "well who else is going to do it" is hardly conducive and actually stifles the debate. Perhap we should be discussing what attributes are required for this role, for example:-

An open mind
Tact
Diplomacy

Upon reflection maybe we should look at who else is willing to "take on the job" "As it currently stands" is another matter for discussion - noone could or should be expected to take on any job with one hand tied behind their back. My husband who in addition to the competancies I listed above also has discretion and a burning desire to make chess a sport in this country and on that basis is willing to stand as Junior Director

[Jim Wadsworth]

I hope you don't mind if i pick up on this "pressure" point because i must say from the experience of someone who followed the World Youth trail 15-20 years ago it is not something i recognise. Now it may just say something about my approach to the game, but i didn't notice World Youth Championships as being massively pressurised, and from memory i don't recall others being particularly different (although of course it is possible that i wasn't very observant or otherwise not aware). There was always from my point of view a very satisfactory balance between chess and other activities and the players always had a great deal of independence.

Is it massively different today, and if so does this contribute towards a step change in the pressure that players are under, especially at a young age? I wonder occasionally when i hear reports state (approvingly) how hard the players have worked, under what is often made to sound like extremely gruelling schedules. I admit that maybe the past was sometimes a bit too "laissez-faire" (at least unless some of what went on could be kept secret from parents!) but nobody can doubt that it didn't prevent players from thriving. Maybe the junior game is different today, but i can't believe it should be that different. Is there is a danger that in the modern chess world of computer databases all junior players are pushed down the same "hard work" road, potentially harmfully? I just think that the chess schedules alone are tough enough for some young players, and a minimalist approach to preparation etc where appropriate should not be dismissed. The "players are here to work, not to have a holiday" approach emphasised by Lawrence on the other thread should be nuanced to my mind.

I can't comment on history, but the schedule for those events my son has been involved in has typically been along the following lines:

8.30 breakfast
9.00 - 10.00 preparation with coach - review opponent's track record on available databases, decide what opening/lines to play, etc.
10.00 - 11.30 review games / openings recommended by coach
11.30 - 12.00 rest
12.00 - 1.00 lunch
1.00 - 1.45 rest
1.45 - 2.00 team meeting
2.00 - 3.00 travel to venue, get settled in
3.00 - game starts
whenever game finishes (anything between 5pm and 7.30pm - say 6pm average) - travel back to hotel
6.30 - 7.00 review game with coach (own game and team-mates's games)
7.00 - 7.30 dinner
7.30 - 8.30 carry on reviewing day's games
8.30 - bedtime go for walk, have a chat, generally relax. At some point collect the pairings for tomorrow's game and look up opponent on available databases.

[bedtime, if you are Matthew's age, being as close to 8.30pm as the parent can get away with]

Either way, little to no time for "holiday" activity other than on the single rest day, on which the players are generally so tired all they want to do is hang around the hotel. Other than immediately before or after the game, little opportunity to socialise with other countries. I haven't seen Lawrence's post, but yes it is almost all work. A holiday it is not. If you want relaxation these are not the events to come to.
(for further details see my recent write-ups on Georgia for further insights.... http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?p=6710)

[Alex Holowczak]

I can't comment on history, but the schedule for those events my son has been involved in has typically been along the following lines:
8.30 breakfast
9.00 - 10.00 preparation with coach - review opponent's track record on available databases, decide what opening/lines to play, etc.
10.00 - 11.30 review games / openings recommended by coach
11.30 - 12.00 rest
12.00 - 1.00 lunch
1.00 - 1.45 rest
1.45 - 2.00 team meeting
2.00 - 3.00 travel to venue, get settled in
3.00 - game starts
whenever game finishes (anything between 5pm and 7.30pm - say 6pm average) - travel back to hotel
6.30 - 7.00 review game with coach (own game and team-mates's games)
7.00 - 7.30 dinner
7.30 - 8.30 carry on reviewing day's games
8.30 - bedtime go for walk, have a chat, generally relax. At some point collect the pairings for tomorrow's game and look up opponent on available databases.

Well, if that's what it takes to be good at chess, I'll settle for being a 140-standard player thanks.

[andrew martin]

Hang on, he left out 8-830am Kill overnight cockroach invasion and swab down latrines.

I cannot believe he omitted that.

[IM Jack Rudd]

I can't comment on history, but the schedule for those events my son has been involved in has typically been along the following lines:
{Full day's schedule omitted}

Well, if that's what it takes to be good at chess, I'll settle for being a 140-standard player thanks.

I got to IM without doing that. Mind you, I never played in one of those junior events.

[Simon Ansell]

I would have quit chess a long time ago if it was like that all the time. Chess should first and foremost be about having fun and enjoying the game.

Why the one hour journey times from accommodation to hotel? Something is wrong there.

[Alan Burke]

"We are not stopping the very best from going. We are asking that others be allowed to go too.
Best wishes, Krishna"
-----------------------

Suppose all the countries sent everyone who WANTED to go to the these International events irrespective of ability, players would then not just be competing against the very best and thus the tournaments would become the World/Euro Championships in name only. These 'other' players would therefore dilute the quality of the opposition taking part in what would then be 'just another event' - and in that case, youngsters might as well just compete in similar tournaments elsewhere (Of course the boasting rights of "my child has played in the World/Euro Championships" would be taken away from some parents !)

If it was open to anyone, would English parents who have spent all their money in order for their youngster to attend the events then think it worthwhile, both financially and for the benefit of their child's chess career, to find them competing against a 1850 German; a 1900 Brazilian; a 1875 Egyptian or a 1795 Australian ?

I feel it is not a 'right' for a child to be allowed to compete at these International events and that only the VERY top players should go. The players there are representing OUR country and I do not want to be represented by anyone who is less than the very best.

[IM Jack Rudd]

Suppose all the countries sent everyone who WANTED to go to the these International events irrespective of ability, players would then not just be competing against the very best and thus the tournaments would become the World/Euro Championships in name only. These 'other' players would therefore dilute the quality of the opposition taking part in what would then be 'just another event' - and in that case, youngsters might as well just compete in similar tournaments elsewhere (Of course the boasting rights of "my child has played in the World/Euro Championships" would be taken away from some parents !)

Being open to all doesn't affect the prestige of the adult events of this type, though. The 2008 EU Championship was a star-studded event, containing, amongst others, the entire England Olympiad squad for that year. The chap who spent most of the tournament around board 70 and who barely knew anything about the game didn't detract from that.

[Richard Bates]

I hope you don't mind if i pick up on this "pressure" point because i must say from the experience of someone who followed the World Youth trail 15-20 years ago it is not something i recognise. Now it may just say something about my approach to the game, but i didn't notice World Youth Championships as being massively pressurised, and from memory i don't recall others being particularly different (although of course it is possible that i wasn't very observant or otherwise not aware). There was always from my point of view a very satisfactory balance between chess and other activities and the players always had a great deal of independence.

Is it massively different today, and if so does this contribute towards a step change in the pressure that players are under, especially at a young age? I wonder occasionally when i hear reports state (approvingly) how hard the players have worked, under what is often made to sound like extremely gruelling schedules. I admit that maybe the past was sometimes a bit too "laissez-faire" (at least unless some of what went on could be kept secret from parents!) but nobody can doubt that it didn't prevent players from thriving. Maybe the junior game is different today, but i can't believe it should be that different. Is there is a danger that in the modern chess world of computer databases all junior players are pushed down the same "hard work" road, potentially harmfully? I just think that the chess schedules alone are tough enough for some young players, and a minimalist approach to preparation etc where appropriate should not be dismissed. The "players are here to work, not to have a holiday" approach emphasised by Lawrence on the other thread should be nuanced to my mind.

I can't comment on history, but the schedule for those events my son has been involved in has typically been along the following lines:

8.30 breakfast
9.00 - 10.00 preparation with coach - review opponent's track record on available databases, decide what opening/lines to play, etc.
10.00 - 11.30 review games / openings recommended by coach
11.30 - 12.00 rest
12.00 - 1.00 lunch
1.00 - 1.45 rest
1.45 - 2.00 team meeting
2.00 - 3.00 travel to venue, get settled in
3.00 - game starts
whenever game finishes (anything between 5pm and 7.30pm - say 6pm average) - travel back to hotel
6.30 - 7.00 review game with coach (own game and team-mates's games)
7.00 - 7.30 dinner
7.30 - 8.30 carry on reviewing day's games
8.30 - bedtime go for walk, have a chat, generally relax. At some point collect the pairings for tomorrow's game and look up opponent on available databases.

[bedtime, if you are Matthew's age, being as close to 8.30pm as the parent can get away with]

Either way, little to no time for "holiday" activity other than on the single rest day, on which the players are generally so tired all they want to do is hang around the hotel. Other than immediately before or after the game, little opportunity to socialise with other countries. I haven't seen Lawrence's post, but yes it is almost all work. A holiday it is not. If you want relaxation these are not the events to come to.
(for further details see my recent write-ups on Georgia for further insights.... http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?p=6710)

Well personally i think that makes my point adequately. Especially the point about how tired the players are come the rest day. Don't you think the schedule might have contributed to that, and it doesn't matter how much preparation you do if you blunder after 2 and a half hrs due to tiredness? Just to get in a cliche, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I wasn't quite Matthew's age i think, but i was going to World Juniors from the age of 12 onwards. Without parental support. Seem to remember spending much of the time at the first one playing tennis with James Cobb on an imaginary court in the middle of a Polish park. The current approach of "work, work, work, and no play" seems to mirror what is apparently going on in our school system. Is it necessary though?

Although, just to please Alex H, it was different back then. We sometimes had to get up in the mornings to play out adjournments! Some of the Russian kids had to do it every day (when they were paired early in the tournament they would defer the result of the game until they knew who would benefit most from a victory)

[LozCooper]

I would have quit chess a long time ago if it was like that all the time. Chess should first and foremost be about having fun and enjoying the game.

Why the one hour journey times from accommodation to hotel? Something is wrong there.

At the World Youth the buses would leave around 15:00 which got us to the tournament hall about 45 minutes before the start of the game. The alternative was €20 taxis each way. Given that they weren't using zero tolerance start times it's clear that we could have left half an hour later without any problems

Of course having accommodation at the venue would have been much nicer, preferably with less than three to a room

[Matthew Turner]

Jim,
I noticed your comment

"Either way, little to no time for "holiday" activity other than on the single rest day, on which the players are generally so tired all they want to do is hang around the hotel"

I appreciate that the chess at these events is very gruelling. However, I still think it is a little bit sad that, having travelled half-way round the World, the players are not able to take in some of the local culture on one of the trips that are organised on the rest day. I have played in Norway for the last few years and the leading players happily take part in the events organised without it seemingly affecting their play. Two years ago, 14 year old Ray Robson was happily fishing at midnight, but managed to fit in enough preparation to win the tournament and get a GM norm.
Can I just ask, did you and Matthew enjoy the European Championships?

[Alan Burke]

Jack Rudd...
Being open to all doesn't affect the prestige of the adult events of this type, though. The 2008 EU Championship was a star-studded event, containing, amongst others, the entire England Olympiad squad for that year. The chap who spent most of the tournament around board 70 and who barely knew anything about the game didn't detract from that.
--------------------------------------
That might be fine for adult events (and no doubt his opponents wouldn't complain because it would be an easy win for them), but what good will it do for the development of up-and-coming youngsters to go the World/Euro events and end up playing against opponents who also might know barely nothing about the game ? Alternatively, what good would it be for a youngster of that low level to go and get mauled by the very top players ? (OK, people might say they can learn through the experience of playing them, but is that really what the World/Euros should be there for ?)

[Roger de Coverly]

That might be fine for adult events (and no doubt his opponents wouldn't complain because it would be an easy win for them), but what good will it do for the development of up-and-coming youngsters to go the World/Euro events and end up playing against opponents who also might know barely nothing about the game ? Alternatively, what good would it be for a youngster of that low level to go and get mauled by the very top players ? (OK, people might say they can learn through the experience of playing them, but is that really what the World/Euros should be there for ?)

This can happen anyway in these junior events. FIDE make no attempt to impose minimum rating standards or restrict the number of participants from individual federations. The only limits are those that individual national federations choose to impose.

Organisers of these events rely on being able to charge high season prices on low season time periods for all the paying participants and accompanying family, trainers and managers. For this reason FIDE restrictions on the numbers of entrants either directly or indirectly would seem unlikely.

The EU in Liverpool was unusual for a British adult event in not having a non-prestige tournament running alongside it. The minimum standard of the Hastings Masters and even the Major Open is quite high because of the parallel events.

Like Jack, not every English IM or GM played in International Junior events when younger. Of the recent GMs, Steve Gordon only appears to have been selected once, for the under 18s when he was already approaching FM/IM standard.

[Jim Wadsworth]

Jim,
I noticed your comment

"Either way, little to no time for "holiday" activity other than on the single rest day, on which the players are generally so tired all they want to do is hang around the hotel"

I appreciate that the chess at these events is very gruelling. However, I still think it is a little bit sad that, having travelled half-way round the World, the players are not able to take in some of the local culture on one of the trips that are organised on the rest day. I have played in Norway for the last few years and the leading players happily take part in the events organised without it seemingly affecting their play. Two years ago, 14 year old Ray Robson was happily fishing at midnight, but managed to fit in enough preparation to win the tournament and get a GM norm.
Can I just ask, did you and Matthew enjoy the European Championships?

Matthew loves playing the game, loves the hard work implied by the tough schedule I have outlined, loves the process of preparing games with the coach and loves being part of the England team. This has been true of all the international events he has been lucky enough to be selected for. He was very disappointed by his final result in Georgia, where he narrowly missed out on the prizes; and has come home determined to improve further. If he didn't enjoy it then I wouldn't expose him to what is a very demanding environment, and I could certainly find many other ways to spend the money.

In my view it doesn't matter whether I as a parent do or do not enjoy these events - though I think my reports published on the ECF site answer the question in relation to Georgia - I have defined my role as simply being there to provide Matthew and the other members of the England team with whatever support they needed.

In relation to seeing a bit of the country, I agree with you, at least in theory. In practice we saw more than enough of Georgia (again see the reports) from a bit of walking around the town we were staying in, going to a few bars and restaurants and looking out of the window of the buses. A year ago when the Europeans were in Italy, on the rest day I dragged Matthew round the local cathedral, museums, market etc. I am not sure he thanked me for it!

To answer a question asked implicitly by some others in relation to the schedule, i.e. is it necessary to do this level of preparation and review etc.? Maybe, maybe not. But when you are in an environment when essentially all the other teams and players are doing at least the same amount of preparation, I would argue it would be somewhat naive to not do so yourself.... It is also arguably the most valuable aspect of these events from a developmental viewpoint.

Of course we would endeavour to find ways to help the players relax too, whether that was going to the beach for a swim, playing table tennis or whatever - though typically they are quite happy playing cards together in the hotel. But in the end the reason for going to these places is for the chess. I can assure you I would not consider going to Georgia for a holiday...