Unanswered letter

[Peter Turner]

Laurence & other recent posters

I can see where the confusions have arisen, this must be clarified as soon as possible. Membership of the NJS should have nothing to do with eligibility for the ECF selection trial, and i do believe that it doesn't but it does need spelling out. If this had been the case in the past most of our very best juniors would not have represented England!!
Laurence I think the current JD is unlikely to post on the Forum but someone needs to make a statement on his or the Board's behalf. It is just a misunderstanding.

Peter Turner
Former BCF/ECF Director of Junior Chess (retired)

[Roger de Coverly]

At the risk of provoking a repetition of the arguments already made on this forum, I feel that I should point out (again) that the ECF Board as a whole did debate the junior selection policy and voted to support the Junior Director's preferred solution.

The new fact that seems to have emerged is that the ECF has out-sourced its selection rights for World and European Junior events to a third party, namely the National Junior Chess Squad. This body operates a closed shop, namely that you can only be considered for international selection if you are a member and you can only become a member by playing in certain events. These events do not include mainstream adult tournaments and leagues. That seems the reason why some players have been excluded from trial invitations, namely that they aren't members of the NJCS. Presumably the ECF has no direct control over the policies and practices of the NJCS.

FIDE events such as World and European Championships work on the protocols that invites are only issued to the official national federation. So if the NCJS are selecting players for these events, they are only doing it with the permission of the ECF. This contrast with non-FIDE events where a tournament organisation is entirely at liberty to issue an invite to the NJCS without involving the ECF.

(edit) It appears not to be the case that you need to be a NJCS member to represent England in World and Junior events. Given the overlap between NJCS events and those used for the ECF's England selection, it is easy to see how well informed websites like the Staffs junior could have been misinformed.

(edit) Am I right in thinking the NJCS is what used to be the BCF Junior Squad? This was set up by Leonard Barden and others in the 1970s, I'd imagine by invite only. In those days, they would turn up en masse at an unsuspecting Congress and create havoc by downing many of the established stars.

[Jim Wadsworth]

Membership of the NJS should have nothing to do with eligibility for the ECF selection trial, and i do believe that it doesn't

It doesn't. Note that I am posting as a parent whose offspring has been through the process, and who has been selected under the current regime for the Europeans and without being a member of the Squad. FAOD I am not speaking for either the current JD or the ECF...

[Jim Wadsworth]

The new fact that seems to have emerged is that the ECF has out-sourced its selection rights for World and European Junior events to a third party, namely the National Junior Chess Squad.

It hasn't....

[Peter Turner]

As I said previously, I can see where the confusion has arisen but from the Selection Policy on the ECF website there is no confusion:-

Eligibility for Selection

• All long-term English residents (including those temporarily based abroad) are eligible for selection. There is no requirement to be a UK national.
• All candidates who wish to be considered for selection must be ECF members.
• If a player has previously represented another FIDE member federation, transferring to England may be possible, but the player must advise ECF officials well in advance that he/she wishes to transfer. The time scale for this will be advised on request.
• Any player owing the ECF money will not be selected to represent England.

[Roger de Coverly]

Membership of the NJS should have nothing to do with eligibility for the ECF selection trial, and i do believe that it doesn't but it does need spelling out.

In practice it looks very difficult since a route to England selection is to perform well in NJCS events.

from http://www.englishchess.org.uk/?page_id=353

What do you need to do to be selected?

There will be a single very restricted trial for the World Championships on the first weekend in March (5th & 6th) – U18s please keep this date free) and players for other tournaments and matches will be selected from Grand Prix results in other existing junior tournaments.

The event list was
• British Championships at the University of Kent, Canterbury 25/7 to 7/10 – events to count British Championships, U16, U14, U13, U12, U11, U10.
• London Junior 11/12 December (U14, U10) 28-30 December (U16, U12) 2010
• South of England Championships at Yateley Manor Jan 29/30 2011
• West of England Championships at Swindon February 26/7/2011
• Junior Squad at Royal Wolverhampton School, Wolverhampton April 16-18 2011

British Championship and London Junior events (at older age groups) are open. Does the same apply to the others?

[David Shepherd]

The only closed event is Yately, that being by invitation - see Pauls comment below.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

The West of England Championships and the Junior Squad tournament in Wolverhampton were open (but members of the NJCS had a slightly discounted entry fee for the latter). I think the South of England Championships is invitation only, but I'm not 100% sure about that one.

The London Junior Championships is open as well, but the children have to qualify for the younger age group sections via one of the many qualifying tournaments which take place in September to December. These qualifying tournaments are all open.

[Paul Sanders]

The South of England is closed. Qualification is by membership of the NCJS, or by gaining an NCJS half norm.

[David Shepherd]

The ncjs is only relevant to U10's upwards as in general parents are not allowed on the trips. As U9's are invited to the trial clearly the trial is not restricted to ncjs members. I can also name other non ncjs members who are over 9 but have played in the trial. The junior director will change before the next trial anyway (if there is a trial) so there is no point in working out what the exact policy has been, better to focus on what it should be going forward, which has been extensively debated on the forum.

[Jim Wadsworth]

http://ncjs.web.officelive.com/Qualification.aspx

This completely understandable confusion arises from the fact that there are, essentially, two different "England" representative groups, in both of which Peter Purland currently plays a key role, and which currently have very similar approaches to selection.

If my understanding as a parent is correct, then (in summary):

The Squad selects junior players for a series of events including matches vs Flanders, the recent Frydek Mistek tournament. The principal route for selection is via a weekend tournament for under 11s held (this year anyway) in Liverpool in early April. Players qualify to be invited to the selection tournament based on their performance at events such as the British, London juniors, the South of England, the West of England and NCJS junior tournaments. Players scoring sufficiently highly (say 4 / 6 or better) are invited to join the Squad and hence to play in one or more of the events managed by the NCJS. It is also possible to qualify post the trial through performing well at pretty much the same events. Once you are part of the Squad as far as I can tell you are a member - if you wish - for the remaining duration of your time as a junior. There is no requirement to re-qualify.

In contrast the ECF selects junior players for events such as the World Youth and European Youth. The current route for selection to the Worlds is via a weekend tournament held (this year) in Newport Pagnell in early March. Players are invited to participate in the trial (and yes were asked to not attend if unable to attend the World Youth event in Brazil). The current route for selection for the European Youth event is via the JRGP, hence performance at the relevant age group sections of: the British, London juniors, the South of England, the West of England and NCJS tournaments. In general (but not always) currently only one player per age group / gender is sent to the Worlds and (a different) single player per age group/per gender is sent to the Europeans. Selection in a prior year has no bearing on selection in the current year. Note that the ECF also selects players for other events (e.g. British Isles); selection for these is in part though not exclusively based on JRGP performance.


So there are a number of similarities, and a number of differences. Both organisations state that they are selecting players to represent England....both use many of the same junior events for selection purposes and in part utilise a single-shot weekend trial....confusion perhaps inevitable....?


All that said, I completely agree with David Shepherd's most recent post: "The junior director will change before the next trial anyway (if there is a trial) so there is no point in working out what the exact policy has been, better to focus on what it should be going forward".



[Edited to correct a typo]

[Angus McDonald]

Is there not a place for intransigence to be replaced by sensibility now! rather than in 6 months time when it will be too late for this years tournaments. I just wouldn't have the neck to thwart a 2200 fide rated junior from playing for their country. I'd be doing everything to encourage and facilitate such strong talent. A country like England should have 4 representatives at each age group at the Euroyouth. France and Germany do just that.

By all means select those qualified through the trials but FIDE do not limit the amount of players at each age group a federation can nominate.

If you are strong enough you should be an automatic nominee (strong players help any squad imho). The trials should be for the up and coming talent to prove themselves and force their way into the team.

At a certain point the cost of all the trial tournaments mean only those with adequate funds will be able to represent their country. Remembering that it is still expensive to play the Euroyouth or World Youth.

[Angus McDonald]

But! it's a good policy to send 8 to the Czech tournament and a bad policy to send more than 1 at each agegroup to the Euroyouth??

[LozCooper]

Hi Laurence

Is it really true that a youngster has to be a member of the National Junior Squad (NJS) in order to be invited to the Trials. The NJS is a separate entity to the ECF an an independant body. Entry to the NJS is limited and not open, are you meaning to say that a youngster has to be a member of the ECF as used to be the policy.

Peter T

Hi Peter,

I over complicated the point that I meant to make which was that the trial is not open to any player in the sense that anyone can enter and that it is invitational.

[Paul Sanders]

A couple of points to add... EPSCA claims to run 'the England Team' - another case where parents could easily be led to believe that this is the England Team rather than (as far as I can tell) a privately run team called 'the England Team', and also the 'National Primary Schools Championships' which has no standing with the ECF as far as I can tell.

Frydek Mistek is an Open tournament and anyone could go along with their child quite independently of the NCJS.

Parents are very confused indeed, and were made even more so when the ECF selection and the private organisations appeared to merge. Even the Chief Exec of the ECF recently cited the NCJS as one of the benefits the ECF offers, so the confusion goes right the way to the top.