Unanswered letter

[Andrew Giles]

Rightly or wrongly as far as most parents and players are concerned the NCJS is the England junior chess team.

It is seen as a major goal for the better county players at U11 level to get a place and I think by and large it is representative of the best juniors in each age group, excepting one or two who chose not to take part. The match in August would be considered by most taking part as England versus France.
Maybe ECF might want to consider endorsing the NCJS setup to avoid any further confusion.

That's not to take away from what playing individually at the World Youth for example offers the elite player, which is of a different order and I think also requires a whole different level of commitment from the players family.

[David Shepherd]

Many of us parents first encountered Peter Purland through EPSCA. This is what it says on the EPSCA website:

E.P.S.C.A. runs the England Under 11 Team and the England Girls' Under 11 Team.

As a parent I think you would be forgiven for thinking that the 'England Under 11 Team' referred to was the England Under 11 Team. But not so, as far as I can tell.

I think I can clarify the above re the England U11 girls team, and what they compete in - its quite simple there isn't one. There has in recent years been a match one half of the country against the other (girls), but that is it.

[Angus McDonald]

If it's good to be pluralistic whilst wearing one hat why is it not good to be pluralistic whilst wearing the other hat?

I agree with what Paul and quite a few others have said.

There is a need for an elite squad which nurtures those with significantly strong fide grades (It's difficult to get a strong fide grade if you dont' deserve it)

and also the qualifying system for all comers to give the opportunity for quick developing talent to make their mark.

You could send 3 at each age group from the elite squad and have one place reserved for a qualifier.

Why limit it to 1 representative place at each age group? It doesn't make sense if you are trying to grow junior chess.

Junior chess grows when more opportunities are created for juniors. Not less. imho

[David Sedgwick]

I think it's time to move on from that point. Let me just repeat what I posted in another thread.

I dont think you should attempt to close down a thread or point of view in this way; there are moderators for that function. This isnt the first time you have acted in this rather pompous manner, invariably restating your own view as if it should be the last word.

Whatever your view of David's contributions in general, the point he makes here is valid and a very useful one to remember in the context of this thread.

Thanks Mike.

Nevertheless I appreciate that E Michael has made a fair point. I'm sorry that the tone of my posts has sometimes caused offence.

[E Michael White]

Whatever your view of David's contributions in general, the point he makes here is valid and a very useful one to remember in the context of this thread.

I dont have a view of Daivid Sedgwick’s contributions "in general" some I agree with some I disagree with; some I feel are well researched others inadequately researched. The point he made has no greater validity than the points made by others; in fact he suggests an alternate way to organise the overall junior selection process, which has some advantages and some disadvantages. If you and he try to stifle debate these will not emerge.

[David Sedgwick]

Whatever your view of David's contributions in general, the point he makes here is valid and a very useful one to remember in the context of this thread.

I dont have a view of Daivid Sedgwick’s contributions "in general" some I agree with some I disagree with; some I feel are well researched others inadequately researched. The point he made has no greater validity than the points made by others; in fact he suggests an alternate way to organise the overall junior selection process, which has some advantages and some disadvantages. If you and he try to stifle debate these will not emerge.

I've accepted that I should not have posted in the tone that I did.

The point I would make now is that the ECF Council has decided, rightly or wrongly, to reject Loz Cooper's original proposal. Hence his objectives cannot be met in the way that he originally hoped. There are nevertheless alternative ways that those objectives can be taken forward within the existing ECF structure. Mike Gunn, as ECF Chairman, has a particular duty to work within that structure.

I'm hoping to be able to discuss this with Loz, probably off board initially.

[Alex Holowczak]

There are far, far too many organisations representing, organising and generally getting involved in junior chess. There is no commonality of purpose; there are no clear goals and the junior director - unless they are involved in one of these endless cabels - has limited strategic power.

Absolutely right.

[Paul Sanders]

How sweep away the myriad junior bodies - staffed generally by wonderful volunteers - without damaging the volume of junior chess played and without having much power to do so was something I never quite resolved in my mind.

The current board will need to resolve it.

Happy co-existence would probably be a more likely outcome, in my view. The many great opportunities for juniors in England are a vital part of national chess development - the gap in provision is entirely at the top. While the other organisations between them provide a great platform, the ECF has not provided what only it can.

[Richard James]

Notwithstanding, the subject of this particular thread - it has taken almost 15 pages to get to the heart of the matter.

The organisation of English Junior Chess should serve two quite distinct functions.

Encourage juniors to take up chess and enjoy - so hopefully they will play at whatever level throughout their lives.

Create a conveyor belt of excellence so that the best players are spotted at the earliest opportunity and developed intensively.

The second aim has not been met for numerous years and having seen at first hand how it all works, I believe I know why.

There are far, far too many organisations representing, organising and generally getting involved in junior chess. There is no commonality of purpose; there are no clear goals and the junior director - unless they are involved in one of these endless cabels - has limited strategic power.

At an early stage with Claire Summerscale (a great junior director) we tried to delink the two aims and use JRT funding to promote the second.

My own personal view at the time was where these various bodies were actually doing (along with UKCC) an okay job in delivering the first aim; they were unwittingly making it impossible to deliver the second.

I believed that the only way to deliver the second aim, was that the ECF should essentialy skip a couple of age groups (with one or two exceptions) and throw most of our resources at supplying as much coaching as possible to those in the lower age groups who we felt had the potential to become GMs - we started someway along this route though without skipping the ages. Selection tournaments would have had no place in this.

However, we also felt that it could not be wrong to send as many from the "second tier " to as many "secondary" international tournaments as was possible - under the control of the ECF. And I had little problem with selection tournaments for these events, though i recall i was in a minority.

The whole strategy would have required the Junior and International directors and the Coaching Manager working as a close-knit team over the long-term for an agreed aim - which being very competent they were all willing to do.

How sweep away the myriad junior bodies - staffed generally by wonderful volunteers - without damaging the volume of junior chess played and without having much power to do so was something I never quite resolved in my mind.

The current board will need to resolve it.

I agree with most of this, and have posted elsewhere about the need for more centralised junior administration.

But, looking at the derisory numbers of teenagers playing chess, do you really think we're achieving the first aim?

[raycollett]

There are far, far too many organisations representing, organising and generally getting involved in junior chess. There is no commonality of purpose.

I agree. At the last count I made it there there were 5 organisations offering national titles: English Primary Schools Chess Association, National Youth Chess Association, UK Chess Challenge, English Chess Challenge, and the English Chess Federation. This cannot be good for the game and it does not provide a coherent pathway for an improving junior. Perhaps the most important task is for the Junior Director to get the senior officials and promotors of these junior competitions together to devise a national strategy.

[Adam Raoof]

There are far, far too many organisations representing, organising and generally getting involved in junior chess. There is no commonality of purpose.

I agree. At the last count I made it there there were 5 organisations offering national titles: English Primary Schools Chess Association, National Youth Chess Association, UK Chess Challenge, English Chess Challenge, and the English Chess Federation. This cannot be good for the game and it does not provide a coherent pathway for an improving junior. Perhaps the most important task is for the Junior Director to get the senior officials and promotors of these junior competitions together to devise a national strategy.

As far as I know, the only one of these which can offer official English national titles is the English Chess Federation. And it doesn't seem to do that at all - perhaps it should offer the right to award those titles to one of the excellent organisations you mentioned?

The British Chess Championships offers British titles at various age groups. Perhaps the British should introduce qualification to the British Juniors in the same way that it has qualification to the Championships?

[LozCooper]

As far as I know, the only one of these which can offer official English national titles is the English Chess Federation. And it doesn't seem to do that at all - perhaps it should offer the right to award those titles to one of the excellent organisations you mentioned?

Weren't these official English national titles offered by the ECF?

http://www.chevanneschessacademy.com/WC ... inals.html

[John Upham]

As far as I know, the only one of these which can offer official English national titles is the English Chess Federation.

I assume that EPSCA awards titles to the winners of its various events?

I checked their archive http://www.epsca.org.uk/archive.htm

which lists events from 2009 and older.

[Adam Raoof]

As far as I know, the only one of these which can offer official English national titles is the English Chess Federation. And it doesn't seem to do that at all - perhaps it should offer the right to award those titles to one of the excellent organisations you mentioned?

Weren't these official English national titles offered by the ECF?

http://www.chevanneschessacademy.com/WC ... inals.html

They were, but that doesn't alter the fact that the ECF is the body that offers the titles - and awards the right to hold competitions to award those titles.

As far as I know, EPSCA awards its own titles, not ECF national titles.

[LozCooper]

As far as I know, the only one of these which can offer official English national titles is the English Chess Federation. And it doesn't seem to do that at all - perhaps it should offer the right to award those titles to one of the excellent organisations you mentioned?

Weren't these official English national titles offered by the ECF?

http://www.chevanneschessacademy.com/WC ... inals.html

They were, but that doesn't alter the fact that the ECF is the body that offers the titles - and awards the right to hold competitions to award those titles.

Agreed, but as the events were run by ECF officials, namely Sabrina Chevannes and Jovanka Houska, The co-managers of Women's Chess, I wanted people to be clear that despite you saying the ECF doesn't seem to offer national titles at all, we did that this month thanks to the hard work of Sabrina and Jovanka and I hope they will continue to run these events. It would also be nice, of course, to have the equivalent titles offered for the boys.