UKCC Mega Finals results?

[Alex Holowczak]

There were more than 26 teenagers as quite a few of the 22 U13s are now 13! Many teenagers don't play because the Megafinals are too close to important public exams. In total 46 qualified from Wilson's School but only 21 played, with a lower proportion of years 10 to 13 (7 out of 20 playing).

Is there any reason why these things are still organised for May (and/or to clash with the 4NCL)? I gather that you usually have a choice of any time in April or May, so why do people put them in May? I can't think of a reason why they couldn't all be held in April, thus older players don't have so much of a problem with exams being close by.

Is the timing of the Megafinals the reason for fewer secondary age entrants, or is it because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary?

It's because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary schools.

I remember when I ran UKCC at the school stages, and then had the job of chasing people up to enter Megafinals. (This was only 3 years ago!) A lot of them said they weren't going to enter because they had exams. Even if the children wanted to play, parents would bar some from doing so because they'd rather they concentrated on the exams. I'm not convinced this was purely down to the date - one major Grammar school didn't enter at all - but I think it had some part to play.

I guarantee that if you asked the older players at the Megafinals whether they would prefer it to be held in early April rather than early May, you'd get a near-unanimous response for the early April option. At least, I did when I conducted the experiment last year. And remember those are the ones who've turned up despite the impending exams.

To prove the point; I think it was last year's Worcestershire Megafinal when that experiment was conducted, and the U18s had a lot more players in it because it was held in the middle of April. The day after the Council Meeting, in fact. It was held on the Sunday just gone this year, and people commented on the lack of Under 18s playing in it.

[Richard James]

Is the timing of the Megafinals the reason for fewer secondary age entrants, or is it because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary?

It's because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary schools.

This is not entirely true. Most kids drop out of chess long before they leave primary school.

A typical primary school chess club will have something like 16 Y3s (age 7-8), 8 Y4s (age 8-9), 4 Y5s (age 9-10) and 2 Y6s (age 10-11).

For most kids in primary school chess clubs it's just a temporary interest which will only hold them for a year or two.

[Alex Holowczak]

Is the timing of the Megafinals the reason for fewer secondary age entrants, or is it because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary?

It's because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary schools.

This is not entirely true. Most kids drop out of chess long before they leave primary school.

A typical primary school chess club will have something like 16 Y3s (age 7-8), 8 Y4s (age 8-9), 4 Y5s (age 9-10) and 2 Y6s (age 10-11).

For most kids in primary school chess clubs it's just a temporary interest which will only hold them for a year or two.

I notice from Megafinals and Junior Championships that the biggest section seems to be the Under 10s. The Under 12s tends to be the section above it, and I reckon most of the players in the Under 12s are in fact Under 11s (hence, at primary schools). So I think you're right that that might be the distribution of primary school clubs, but in competitions, the distribution goes up from Under 8 to Under 10, down to Under 12 (still higher than Under 8), then falls off a cliff for Under 14 down to Under 18. I think we had something like 24-64-40-26 last year in Warwickshire; the 26 being merged U14, 16 and 18 sections. (Megafinals around here tend to get far fewer than this in the top merged sections. I don't know why...)

[Neill Cooper]

At the Surrey Megafinals the U9s is normally the largest section, so they are giving up whilst at primary school. But the biggest drop off is when they go to secondary school as so few have chess clubs.

Conversely, where secondary schools do have chess clubs then there are teenagers who take up chess and are more likely to continue playing after they leave school.

[Steve Rooney]

Is the timing of the Megafinals the reason for fewer secondary age entrants, or is it because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary?

It's because lots of them drop chess when they leave primary schools.

This is not entirely true. Most kids drop out of chess long before they leave primary school.

A typical primary school chess club will have something like 16 Y3s (age 7-8), 8 Y4s (age 8-9), 4 Y5s (age 9-10) and 2 Y6s (age 10-11).

For most kids in primary school chess clubs it's just a temporary interest which will only hold them for a year or two.

I notice from Megafinals and Junior Championships that the biggest section seems to be the Under 10s. The Under 12s tends to be the section above it, and I reckon most of the players in the Under 12s are in fact Under 11s (hence, at primary schools). So I think you're right that that might be the distribution of primary school clubs, but in competitions, the distribution goes up from Under 8 to Under 10, down to Under 12 (still higher than Under , then falls off a cliff for Under 14 down to Under 18. I think we had something like 24-64-40-26 last year in Warwickshire; the 26 being merged U14, 16 and 18 sections. (Megafinals around here tend to get far fewer than this in the top merged sections. I don't know why...)

I was hoping that Richard would help to inform this thread. I think he's right about the need to focus more on secondary age groups to develop a lasting interest in chess. Given the generally low level of secondary school chess activity, the challenge is to develop pathways to ease the transition into adult leagues and congresses rather than focus on junior v junior. That is not to descry the UKCC. Anything which gets up to 70,000 children playing can only be a positive force, but it's not really part of Mike Basman's brief to develop those pathways for teenagers.

It's always good PR to see very young children playing chess, but is it best for them and for the long term health of the game?

As a teenager I was encouraged to join a club in my early teens and it is that experience playing for Watford and Harrow with the support of some great enthusiasts at both clubs that led to a life-long interest in the game. In fact browsing through some old club newsletters recently I found a game against a certain R James of Richmond in the London league in 1975!

[Richard James]

As a teenager I was encouraged to join a club in my early teens and it is that experience playing for Watford and Harrow with the support of some great enthusiasts at both clubs that led to a life-long interest in the game. In fact browsing through some old club newsletters recently I found a game against a certain R James of Richmond in the London league in 1975!

[Event "R&T1 v Harrow"]
[Date "1975.??.??"]
[White "Rooney, SB."]
[Black "James, R."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. c3 d6 4. f4 Nf6 5. e5 dxe5 6. fxe5 Nd5 7. Nf3 c5 8. Bb5+
Bd7 9. Bxd7+ Qxd7 10. O-O cxd4 11. cxd4 Nc6 12. Nc3 O-O 13. Ne4 Nc7 14. Nc5 Qd5
15. Be3 b6 16. Nb3 Ne6 17. Qd2 Rfd8 18. Rfd1 Rac8 19. Rac1 a5 20. Rc3 a4 21.
Nc1 Na5 22. b3 axb3 23. axb3 Nc6 24. Ne2 Qb5 25. Rdc1 Na7 26. Rxc8 Rxc8 27.
Rxc8+ Nxc8 28. Qc2 Qd7 29. d5 Nc7 30. Nf4 b5 31. Qe4 1/2-1/2

You're absolutely right about the need to encourage teenagers, by the way!

[Alex Holowczak]

I was hoping that Richard would help to inform this thread. I think he's right about the need to focus more on secondary age groups to develop a lasting interest in chess. Given the generally low level of secondary school chess activity, the challenge is to develop pathways to ease the transition into adult leagues and congresses rather than focus on junior v junior. That is not to descry the UKCC. Anything which gets up to 70,000 children playing can only be a positive force, but it's not really part of Mike Basman's brief to develop those pathways for teenagers.

Definitely. The UKCC is good for giving competition to the high quality 9-11 year olds, and for those still keen beyond it to participate with friends. To be honest, I sense the others are just there to make the event financially viable. I guess those who are strong players at 9-11 (i.e. in England contention) would still be strong players at 12-14 if the UKCC didn't exist.

It's always good PR to see very young children playing chess, but is it best for them and for the long term health of the game?

If they can handle scoring 0-1/6, and know how to play chess, then it's no bad thing. If juniors turn up and get blown apart because they don't know how the pieces move properly (not uncommon at EPSCA level), followed by getting upset and crying, then they really shouldn't be in the competition. E.g. I saw one five-board match with three scholar's mates; two for one team, one for the other. No tears involved, but they were hardly playing chess...

As a teenager I was encouraged to join a club in my early teens and it is that experience playing for Watford and Harrow with the support of some great enthusiasts at both clubs that led to a life-long interest in the game.

Club chess isn't essential. I think developing an interest is. I didn't even join a club until I was 19! OK, I'm not exactly an elite player, but I think I could be defined as having "interest".

[Richard James]

The UKCC is good for giving competition to the high quality 9-11 year olds, and for those still keen beyond it to participate with friends. To be honest, I sense the others are just there to make the event financially viable. I guess those who are strong players at 9-11 (i.e. in England contention) would still be strong players at 12-14 if the UKCC didn't exist.

Exactly - and the others who are just there to make the event financially viable are the ones who will drop out. They will have a short term interest so that they can get their mascots and fluffy pencils, but that's all. I meet a lot of kids here at Hampton Court House who tell me they didn't enjoy the chess club at their previous school.

A couple more points: strong primary school age players are - by and large - produced by parents, not by schools. (You can - if there is someone really enthusiastic there - get good results from primary schools, but the kids tend to give up when they leave because they associate chess with their school.)

I would also put it to you that it is at least as important, and arguably more important to produce potential Alex Holowczaks than to produce potential David Howells. If we get over this obsession with 'producing prodigies' we'll actually produce an environment in which potential prodigies - as well as potential 'average players' - will flourish.

[Neill Cooper]

Given the generally low level of secondary school chess activity, the challenge is to develop pathways to ease the transition into adult leagues and congresses rather than focus on junior v junior. That is not to descry the UKCC. Anything which gets up to 70,000 children playing can only be a positive force, but it's not really part of Mike Basman's brief to develop those pathways for teenagers.

One year (early 2000s) Mike tried a 'Secondary School Chess Challenge' but it did not take off.

It is good to think of the idea of 'pathways to adult chess'. Different ones happen in different places:
Juniors joining adult clubs;
Junior county organisations running U14 and U18 teams;
Juniors being invited to play in adult county teams;
Junior teams at 4NCL, and juniors in 4NCL teams;
University chess teams;
Juniors playing in local rapidplays and congresses.

I'm sure others can add more ideas.

In my experience secondary school chess clubs do not of themselves provide a pathway, but they do keep juniors interested in chess and so make all the others more likely.

[Neill Cooper]

I would also put it to you that it is at least as important, and arguably more important to produce potential Alex Holowczaks than to produce potential David Howells. If we get over this obsession with 'producing prodigies' we'll actually produce an environment in which potential prodigies - as well as potential 'average players' - will flourish.

I wholeheartedly agree.

It is important that the new Junior Director puts consideration into this as well as new initiatives such as an ECF Junior Squad.

[Steve Rooney]

I would also put it to you that it is at least as important, and arguably more important to produce potential Alex Holowczaks than to produce potential David Howells. If we get over this obsession with 'producing prodigies' we'll actually produce an environment in which potential prodigies - as well as potential 'average players' - will flourish.

I wholeheartedly agree.

It is important that the new Junior Director puts consideration into this as well as new initiatives such as an ECF Junior Squad.

Precisely. Developing 'internationals' is too often seen as the sexy part of junior chess and the only priority.

(Thanks for posting the game Richard.)

[Ben Purton]

What is a pain is that the Southern Gigafinal is 2 minutes from my house .......and Anna is playing in Northern one so I am going for support.

[Mark Howitt]

The good thing about the 'Mega Finals' and 'Giga finals' is that they provide decent prize money for juniors- when quite a few of them won't have much money of their own. Also a well run competition. I can't think of any other way for juniors to get OK money for playing some chess! If you're thinking hourly rates it's still quite low but if someone did win something it might spur them on to play more.

I think more money would help kids in their teens remain in chess longer- but of course it's in very short supply. Only kids who really love chess have any incentive to play in the UK.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

As far as I know there are no money prizes at any Megafinal (I'd be astonished if any did offer cash prizes) and the prizes at the Gigafinal are all-or-nothing - £100 for first place and nothing for anyone else.

[Jon D'Souza-Eva]

Going back to John Upham's original request - the Bucks Megafinal results are now available: http://www.ukchesschallenge.com/MFResul ... es11.shtml